Social Q’s: No Need to Feel Flattened by a Fifth Wheel
Third question in this week’s NY Times’ Social Q’s, posted because I’m flabbergasted by the guests’ question.
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Entry tags:
E-cards
Dear Miss Manners: After several decades of typing on keyboards, I have lost my ability to write nicely by hand. My solution is to send electronic notes — for expressing appreciation, recognizing significant events, etc.
There are several lovely e-card forms available. Using them results in more timely responses, as well as significant savings over printed cards and postage.
I feel it would be nice if Miss Manners would acknowledge that electronic thank-yous are as valid as handwritten in today’s communication environment. Any thank-you is better than no thank-you at all.
Sorry, but you will have to snatch the fountain pen out of Miss Manners’ cold, lifeless hand before she agrees that electronic messages are as meaningful as handwritten ones.
She will concede, however, that any response is better than no response (has it really come to this?) as long as the sentiment itself is not computer-generated. “Thank you for the (insert present) that you gave me. It was very special and/or significant” is not fooling anyone.
As for your argument about saving money? Miss Manners highly doubts that the dozen or so letters you write annually is anywhere near the equivalent cost of the computer that you no doubt replace every few years.
[WaPo link]
There are several lovely e-card forms available. Using them results in more timely responses, as well as significant savings over printed cards and postage.
I feel it would be nice if Miss Manners would acknowledge that electronic thank-yous are as valid as handwritten in today’s communication environment. Any thank-you is better than no thank-you at all.
Sorry, but you will have to snatch the fountain pen out of Miss Manners’ cold, lifeless hand before she agrees that electronic messages are as meaningful as handwritten ones.
She will concede, however, that any response is better than no response (has it really come to this?) as long as the sentiment itself is not computer-generated. “Thank you for the (insert present) that you gave me. It was very special and/or significant” is not fooling anyone.
As for your argument about saving money? Miss Manners highly doubts that the dozen or so letters you write annually is anywhere near the equivalent cost of the computer that you no doubt replace every few years.
[WaPo link]
Entry tags:
um
From yesterday's Miss Manners:
Dear Miss Manners: The other night, around 6 p.m., my mother-in-law came to our house without a call or text. Just randomly showed up and started talking to us in the dining room.
I was in the middle of cooking dinner, and had timed it so that I could do other things while the food was in the oven. However, that was interrupted when she came by.
After 15 minutes, I took the food out, added sauce and put it back in for an additional 5 minutes. She saw me do this, and instead of leaving since it was clearly our dinnertime, she pulled out a kitchen chair and sat down! I'm not sure how she failed to read the room.
What is the best way to let her know, without seeming rude, that she should call or text before just popping in?
MM: This was not just any guest, and the term mother-in-law carries often-unjust overtones that are irrelevant to your situation.
If your husband's mother wants to drop by unannounced and stay for dinner, and your husband is unwilling to toss her out, you are stuck. But Miss Manners does not see why this should ruin your night.
Set her a place at the table. After dinner, she can sit with the rest of the family while you go about your evening. If she is still around when the kids go to sleep, your husband can sit with her while you catch up on work — or on a good book.
Dear Miss Manners: The other night, around 6 p.m., my mother-in-law came to our house without a call or text. Just randomly showed up and started talking to us in the dining room.
I was in the middle of cooking dinner, and had timed it so that I could do other things while the food was in the oven. However, that was interrupted when she came by.
After 15 minutes, I took the food out, added sauce and put it back in for an additional 5 minutes. She saw me do this, and instead of leaving since it was clearly our dinnertime, she pulled out a kitchen chair and sat down! I'm not sure how she failed to read the room.
What is the best way to let her know, without seeming rude, that she should call or text before just popping in?
MM: This was not just any guest, and the term mother-in-law carries often-unjust overtones that are irrelevant to your situation.
If your husband's mother wants to drop by unannounced and stay for dinner, and your husband is unwilling to toss her out, you are stuck. But Miss Manners does not see why this should ruin your night.
Set her a place at the table. After dinner, she can sit with the rest of the family while you go about your evening. If she is still around when the kids go to sleep, your husband can sit with her while you catch up on work — or on a good book.
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michelel722024-09-28 11:18 amEntry tags:
An appalling claim of dinner-host 'etiquette'
Dear Miss Manners: I sent out a dinner invitation to my in-laws. My brother-in-law called my husband to confirm attendance. He added that he will be bringing his boyfriend, and will require certain food accommodations because the boyfriend was just discharged from the hospital a couple of days ago after a major organ transplant surgery.
I decided to cancel the dinner, telling my husband that it is rude and entitled to inconvenience your host. If one is that delicate that he needs special treatment, then he should stay home. My husband says I’m being too sensitive and should just ignore the request. What does Miss Manners think?
That someone should be checking in on the boyfriend who just had a major organ transplant?!
Miss Manners has sympathy for the rampant abuse of hosts when it comes to inviting extra people and dictating menus. But she does not cancel dinners over them — and not for legitimate excuses such as bringing an established partner and asking to accommodate his post-hospitalization diet.
Not only are you being too sensitive, you are being actively insensitive. But you may take comfort in knowing that your husband's idea to ignore the (likely) medically necessary dietary request may actually be worse.
(Gift link to the full column)
I decided to cancel the dinner, telling my husband that it is rude and entitled to inconvenience your host. If one is that delicate that he needs special treatment, then he should stay home. My husband says I’m being too sensitive and should just ignore the request. What does Miss Manners think?
That someone should be checking in on the boyfriend who just had a major organ transplant?!
Miss Manners has sympathy for the rampant abuse of hosts when it comes to inviting extra people and dictating menus. But she does not cancel dinners over them — and not for legitimate excuses such as bringing an established partner and asking to accommodate his post-hospitalization diet.
Not only are you being too sensitive, you are being actively insensitive. But you may take comfort in knowing that your husband's idea to ignore the (likely) medically necessary dietary request may actually be worse.
(Gift link to the full column)
Entry tags:
(no subject)
[I don't agree with MM that the two are the same -- surely the equivalent of "gift reaction/thanks" is "dinner reaction/thanks"?]
Dear Miss Manners: I must admit I’ve never understood etiquette’s requirement to invite people to one’s home after being invited to theirs. When my spouse and I host, we feel that it’s our idea — nobody asked us to make a dinner and invite the group. We enjoy cooking and spending time with everyone.
Is it not improper for hosts to expect that they will be “repaid” with invitations from their guests?
Your statement is akin to the frequently argued one that people should give presents because they really want to, and therefore responses from the recipients are unnecessary. So only selfish people feel the need for positive reactions from those they entertain or send presents.
Evidently, you do not care whether the presents were successful, or if your guests liked you enough to initiate seeing you again. Most of us do. Miss Manners can think of hardly anyone — or even any business — not wishing, if not clamoring, for “likes” and feedback.
However, reciprocating hospitality does not necessarily involve duplicating the original scenario — what you characterize as repayment in kind. People entertain in different ways, and an invitation to a picnic or a bistro would be full reciprocation for a formal dinner.
What is important is what it says: “We were not just looking for a free night out. We enjoyed ourselves and want to see you again.”
Dear Miss Manners: I must admit I’ve never understood etiquette’s requirement to invite people to one’s home after being invited to theirs. When my spouse and I host, we feel that it’s our idea — nobody asked us to make a dinner and invite the group. We enjoy cooking and spending time with everyone.
Is it not improper for hosts to expect that they will be “repaid” with invitations from their guests?
Your statement is akin to the frequently argued one that people should give presents because they really want to, and therefore responses from the recipients are unnecessary. So only selfish people feel the need for positive reactions from those they entertain or send presents.
Evidently, you do not care whether the presents were successful, or if your guests liked you enough to initiate seeing you again. Most of us do. Miss Manners can think of hardly anyone — or even any business — not wishing, if not clamoring, for “likes” and feedback.
However, reciprocating hospitality does not necessarily involve duplicating the original scenario — what you characterize as repayment in kind. People entertain in different ways, and an invitation to a picnic or a bistro would be full reciprocation for a formal dinner.
What is important is what it says: “We were not just looking for a free night out. We enjoyed ourselves and want to see you again.”
Entry tags:
Miss Manners: People don't say "Good Morning" when texting
Dear Miss Manners: When texting or emailing friends or clients, I often start off with “Good morning” or “How are you?” and end with “Have a great day.”
I always get short, right-to-the-point answers back, like “Okay,” and they don’t usually start with “Good morning” or end with “Have a good day.” So sometimes, I sarcastically reply “Good morning to me, too,” which I know people don’t like.
Am I too sensitive? I am old school and I just think people are being rude. They can say a little more than “Be there” or something like that. Maybe my expectations are too high and I won’t expect as much anymore.
Miss Manners: An excess of sensitivity would not be the diagnosis from Miss Manners after you admitted to the sarcastic barb. In the hope of preventing the next one, let her point out that different methods of communication carry with them different expectations about brevity.
While she agrees it would be unmannerly not to say hello to someone to whom you have just been introduced in a social setting, she would prefer to dispense with the prelude when warning someone about a fast-approaching car. Texts fall somewhere in between.
I always get short, right-to-the-point answers back, like “Okay,” and they don’t usually start with “Good morning” or end with “Have a good day.” So sometimes, I sarcastically reply “Good morning to me, too,” which I know people don’t like.
Am I too sensitive? I am old school and I just think people are being rude. They can say a little more than “Be there” or something like that. Maybe my expectations are too high and I won’t expect as much anymore.
Miss Manners: An excess of sensitivity would not be the diagnosis from Miss Manners after you admitted to the sarcastic barb. In the hope of preventing the next one, let her point out that different methods of communication carry with them different expectations about brevity.
While she agrees it would be unmannerly not to say hello to someone to whom you have just been introduced in a social setting, she would prefer to dispense with the prelude when warning someone about a fast-approaching car. Texts fall somewhere in between.
Entry tags:
Ask Kai: blocked and accused of boundary-crossing
An advice column we haven't seen much yet. Kai Cheng Thom at Xtra: (the actual title is an essay so I abbreviated it) I I sent some (fully dressed) selfies to a prospective date and they blocked me. What am I missing?"
( CN: mention of transphobia, mention of sexual harassment. Also long answer is long. )
( CN: mention of transphobia, mention of sexual harassment. Also long answer is long. )
minoanmiss2022-08-01 12:19 pmEntry tags:
How to Do It: Two on Sex & Size
Content advisory: fatphobia. ( Read more... )
lemonsharks2022-06-25 04:39 pmDear Abby: these stakes are so low you will find them at the bottom of a superdeep borehole.
DEAR ABBY: What is proper etiquette when attending an event and sitting at a table with more than six people? I think it’s rude to talk to a person across the table.
Talking to a person next to you is acceptable. Talking to someone across the table is rude because the other diners must stop talking to the person seated next to them and be forced to listen to your conversation.
Seeing this happen is becoming more and more annoying. What do you think?
- FORCED TO LISTEN
DEAR FORCED: While that rule of etiquette may have been true in Edwardian times, table etiquette today is no longer so rigid. While, of course, it is desirable to converse with the guests seated next to you, unless communicating with someone across the table requires one to shout — which would be distracting and disruptive — I see nothing rude about it.
Talking to a person next to you is acceptable. Talking to someone across the table is rude because the other diners must stop talking to the person seated next to them and be forced to listen to your conversation.
Seeing this happen is becoming more and more annoying. What do you think?
- FORCED TO LISTEN
DEAR FORCED: While that rule of etiquette may have been true in Edwardian times, table etiquette today is no longer so rigid. While, of course, it is desirable to converse with the guests seated next to you, unless communicating with someone across the table requires one to shout — which would be distracting and disruptive — I see nothing rude about it.
Entry tags:
Miss Manners: Restaurants and Birthdays
Dear Miss Manners: My wife and I went to a restaurant on my birthday. A sign at the door advertised a special reward when paying the bill if you were dining on your birthday. So, I mentioned to the waitress that it was my birthday, in anticipation of the reward.
When it came time to order dessert, the waitress brought a large dessert of the restaurant's choosing to my table with a showy sparkler stuck into it.
I was appalled. This was not a dessert that I could share with my wife, as she didn't like it, and I was hugely embarrassed as I do not make a big deal out of my birthday. Now everybody in the restaurant knew it was my birthday.
I didn't want to hurt the feelings of the waitress, so I feigned delight and ate the dessert. I really wanted to share a dessert with my wife, but because of the actions of the waitress, I was cheated out of this opportunity and I'm not very happy about it.
How should I have handled the situation better? Should I have sent the unexpected dessert back and ordered what we really wanted? And why do people do stuff like this on birthdays without asking the celebrant first if it's what they really want?
Miss Manners: People generally do not do things like this, but companies do. And no matter how many times the restaurant assures you that they are all about people, or people are their business, or people come first — what they are doing is running a business.
Miss Manners does not object to this; in fact, she is sympathetic. She mentions it to explain her lack of surprise that a restaurant that no doubt prides itself on “tailoring their service to your every need” in fact establishes rigid policies for their employees that do not always fit a given situation.
Someone in the head office thought it would be nice to do something special for the birthday boy or girl. They told someone, who told someone, who told the staff. You ordered the special reward, and out it came. A more astute waitperson would indeed have noticed that you had not ordered your dinner from the children’s menu, and may have been able to adjust the reward accordingly. But as it was free, Miss Manners agrees with your accepting it with reasonable grace — and not asking about the free pony ride.
When it came time to order dessert, the waitress brought a large dessert of the restaurant's choosing to my table with a showy sparkler stuck into it.
I was appalled. This was not a dessert that I could share with my wife, as she didn't like it, and I was hugely embarrassed as I do not make a big deal out of my birthday. Now everybody in the restaurant knew it was my birthday.
I didn't want to hurt the feelings of the waitress, so I feigned delight and ate the dessert. I really wanted to share a dessert with my wife, but because of the actions of the waitress, I was cheated out of this opportunity and I'm not very happy about it.
How should I have handled the situation better? Should I have sent the unexpected dessert back and ordered what we really wanted? And why do people do stuff like this on birthdays without asking the celebrant first if it's what they really want?
Miss Manners: People generally do not do things like this, but companies do. And no matter how many times the restaurant assures you that they are all about people, or people are their business, or people come first — what they are doing is running a business.
Miss Manners does not object to this; in fact, she is sympathetic. She mentions it to explain her lack of surprise that a restaurant that no doubt prides itself on “tailoring their service to your every need” in fact establishes rigid policies for their employees that do not always fit a given situation.
Someone in the head office thought it would be nice to do something special for the birthday boy or girl. They told someone, who told someone, who told the staff. You ordered the special reward, and out it came. A more astute waitperson would indeed have noticed that you had not ordered your dinner from the children’s menu, and may have been able to adjust the reward accordingly. But as it was free, Miss Manners agrees with your accepting it with reasonable grace — and not asking about the free pony ride.
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Carolyn Hax: more shower stuff
Hi, Carolyn:
When I heard my niece was getting married, I decided to host a wedding shower for her. My mother has been ill, uses a wheelchair and may not be able to travel to the wedding. I thought it would be nice to have the party in my mom’s condo clubhouse so she could just wheel herself there. I planned a sit-down lunch, since it is difficult for her to talk to people who are standing up.
Due to the limited space, the guest list was quite small. It was approved by the bride and the bride's mom. I made the unfortunate decision to not invite cousins because there are so many of them.
When three of the guests asked me if they could bring their daughters — the bride's cousins — I said no.
Now none of the other side of the family will be attending. Everyone is mad at me, including my sister, the bride’s mom. While I set out to do something nice, I have instead caused a huge rift between the families. Is there anything I can do now to fix this?
— Party-Planning Failure
Party-Planning Failure: You are not a party-planning failure!
You are a party-defining failure. A party-explaining failure, at worst. Meaning, you failed to articulate this wasn’t meant to be THE shower, merely A shower, a small one, to allow your mother possibly her only chance to celebrate with her granddaughter. And maybe if you had communicated that effectively, then someone else in the bride’s orbit could have stepped in to plan a second, more inclusive event — protecting the tender thoughtfulness of your luncheon.
But here's the problem with leaving it at that: The three people who called to get their daughters included, which was a manners failure from the start, and then took “no” for an answer by pitching a classless, intergenerational, party-boycotting hissy fit? They're the true failures here, the ones first in line for correcting. (Your sister is behind them, for initially backing your plan and then withdrawing her support, it seems, when she saw it was unpopular.) All any of them had to do was show up as invited instead of trying to re-engineer someone else's party into one they liked better.
Even if we're talking about a super-tight family in which both excluding cousins and shutting up about it were absolutely unheard of, then there was still a better way: a discreet, open-minded inquiry into your reasoning for the abridged guest list, followed by, “Oh, I get it, I'm so sorry I doubted you,” and maybe — just maybe — an offer of a second event.
But here we are.
Because you're not the bride, existing instead a couple of circles out from the decision-making center, it's not for you to decide unilaterally how to fix this — assuming it's even fixable. The bride and your sister might just want this behind them so the embers can start to cool.
Do ask them, though, if they would like you to address a letter to all affected parties. Something like: “In planning the shower, I regret not making clear that my intentions were only to host a tiny event that would allow Mom to celebrate without feeling overwhelmed. The failure to communicate that is on me. I never meant to hurt anyone’s feelings or cause a distraction for the bride at this exciting time. Thank you for reading this and I look forward to celebrating with everyone soon.”
Even the boycotters, if they deign to get over themselves.
When I heard my niece was getting married, I decided to host a wedding shower for her. My mother has been ill, uses a wheelchair and may not be able to travel to the wedding. I thought it would be nice to have the party in my mom’s condo clubhouse so she could just wheel herself there. I planned a sit-down lunch, since it is difficult for her to talk to people who are standing up.
Due to the limited space, the guest list was quite small. It was approved by the bride and the bride's mom. I made the unfortunate decision to not invite cousins because there are so many of them.
When three of the guests asked me if they could bring their daughters — the bride's cousins — I said no.
Now none of the other side of the family will be attending. Everyone is mad at me, including my sister, the bride’s mom. While I set out to do something nice, I have instead caused a huge rift between the families. Is there anything I can do now to fix this?
— Party-Planning Failure
Party-Planning Failure: You are not a party-planning failure!
You are a party-defining failure. A party-explaining failure, at worst. Meaning, you failed to articulate this wasn’t meant to be THE shower, merely A shower, a small one, to allow your mother possibly her only chance to celebrate with her granddaughter. And maybe if you had communicated that effectively, then someone else in the bride’s orbit could have stepped in to plan a second, more inclusive event — protecting the tender thoughtfulness of your luncheon.
But here's the problem with leaving it at that: The three people who called to get their daughters included, which was a manners failure from the start, and then took “no” for an answer by pitching a classless, intergenerational, party-boycotting hissy fit? They're the true failures here, the ones first in line for correcting. (Your sister is behind them, for initially backing your plan and then withdrawing her support, it seems, when she saw it was unpopular.) All any of them had to do was show up as invited instead of trying to re-engineer someone else's party into one they liked better.
Even if we're talking about a super-tight family in which both excluding cousins and shutting up about it were absolutely unheard of, then there was still a better way: a discreet, open-minded inquiry into your reasoning for the abridged guest list, followed by, “Oh, I get it, I'm so sorry I doubted you,” and maybe — just maybe — an offer of a second event.
But here we are.
Because you're not the bride, existing instead a couple of circles out from the decision-making center, it's not for you to decide unilaterally how to fix this — assuming it's even fixable. The bride and your sister might just want this behind them so the embers can start to cool.
Do ask them, though, if they would like you to address a letter to all affected parties. Something like: “In planning the shower, I regret not making clear that my intentions were only to host a tiny event that would allow Mom to celebrate without feeling overwhelmed. The failure to communicate that is on me. I never meant to hurt anyone’s feelings or cause a distraction for the bride at this exciting time. Thank you for reading this and I look forward to celebrating with everyone soon.”
Even the boycotters, if they deign to get over themselves.
lemonsharks2022-01-29 10:29 amAsk Amy: ever more entitled dog people
Dear Amy: We are starting to have trouble with family members who are dog-lovers.
( rude and thoughtless dog-lovers with poorly trained and dangerous animals )
( rude and thoughtless dog-lovers with poorly trained and dangerous animals )
green_grrl2020-05-13 10:40 pmTraditional manners and male deference
Dear Amy: Women today have been empowered to act and speak out against sexual harassment, bullying, rape, etc. This is a major milestone.
However, over the past few years I have observed the lack of traditional manners toward women by men. I notice husbands and male partners pushing through doors before their wives and dates (instead of holding doors open). I see them seating themselves in restaurants before their dates and wives have been seated.
Along with the gains that women have made, have they also lost the benefit of traditional manners and male deference?
— Wondering
( Response )
However, over the past few years I have observed the lack of traditional manners toward women by men. I notice husbands and male partners pushing through doors before their wives and dates (instead of holding doors open). I see them seating themselves in restaurants before their dates and wives have been seated.
Along with the gains that women have made, have they also lost the benefit of traditional manners and male deference?
— Wondering
( Response )
Entry tags:
And now for something lighter: Sense and Sensitivity
DEAR HARRIETTE: One of my former employees got married a month ago. I was unable to attend because I had to work. Another is getting married in the fall, and once again I am not available for the bridal shower. The day conflicts with a previously scheduled trip for my daughter’s school. I feel bad that I cannot be there for these young women who thought enough of me to invite me to participate in this important moment in their lives. How can I make it up to them? I want them to know how much I care about them and how happy I am for this next step in their lives. -- Missing the Celebration, Denver
DEAR MISSING THE CELEBRATION: Congratulations to your former employees, who are about to take that next great step in life. And congratulations to you for being such a role model that they thought to include you in their ceremonies.
Start by offering your love to your former employees, and let them know how sorry you are that you will not be able to join them. Immediately offer to celebrate with each couple after the wedding. Invite them to dinner or another private gathering where you get to interact personally. At this event, you can present them with a wedding present, or you may want to buy something through their registry and send that ahead.
DEAR MISSING THE CELEBRATION: Congratulations to your former employees, who are about to take that next great step in life. And congratulations to you for being such a role model that they thought to include you in their ceremonies.
Start by offering your love to your former employees, and let them know how sorry you are that you will not be able to join them. Immediately offer to celebrate with each couple after the wedding. Invite them to dinner or another private gathering where you get to interact personally. At this event, you can present them with a wedding present, or you may want to buy something through their registry and send that ahead.