agonyaunt | Dear Abby: Relationship finances, sorta

Exactly what insight into her character is he going to get? Because I can see the kind of insight she'll get, really easily, and it's not a good one.

This is where I am, having read all the discussion I circle back here because this screams volume about him, the assumptions that he's making about her and her motives, and about what he's entitled to -- not contribution to offset additional expenses he has when she stays at his place, but specifically a piece of her AirBnB income -- paint a pretty awful picture of him.

Unless he has some evidence that she manipulated him into inviting her to spend weekends at his place, or refused to alternate weekends with him so that she could make more money, they aren't permanently cohabiting, and aren't commingling finances yet, so her AirBnB venture isn't really his business, and he's tipped his hand trying to claim that it is.

I realize this is beside the point, but I am confused about how "She ends up staying with me most of the time because I live closer to where we both work" turns into "I recently found out that she has been Airbnbing her condo a lot of the weekends when she stays with me." Do they work weekends? If not, why does his proximity to work mean they spend non-work-nights at his place?

That's an interesting observation. That said, I suppose it could just be easier to go there Friday and leave there Monday, although even that is a little odd.

I kind of read it as "We're basically living together for convenience but when she rents it out it's mostly on the weekends".

More to the point: this one depends SO MUCH on how they already handle finances between them. And while I think there's very few situations in which framing it in terms of him getting "a cut" of her profits would be reasonable, I do think if she's moved in with him to the point where she's renting out her own place it's not unreasonable for him to say, "So, we're de facto living together. Are you open to paying me rent?" At the very least, if she's at his place almost every night, I would consider it polite for her to offer to chip in for utilities.

Yeah -- though equally, I'd sort of expect it to depend a bit on whether they have an existing income disparity, and of course how much of the housework she's ending up doing for him*...

* ... pronoun isn't specified, but.

(Like: I'm currently not in a position to pay the partner I'm spending a lot of time with rent/utilities. When a benefits back payment comes in, I will pay them for both -- but equally, exactly how we end up dividing things is going to take into account the fact that I do most of the cooking and a lot of the housework.)

Thank you for reminding me that pronoun isn't specified! I should be more careful about my gendered assumptions.

This, yes.

This is basically the shorter and to the point version of my rambles. >.>

Although I would note that it's also an area where idiolect differences can make such a huge difference: I know people who'd frame it as "get a cut" even when what they actually mean is "contribute to this place I can just barely afford, given that they're getting advantages out of it like saving on gas for work". Which is not to say that's a good word to use, because if you run into the other person having an idiolect where that's going to read Badly . . . . just, yeah.

mmm, I live rent free in OH

My first reaction: If I were her I'd have offered him some of the money, and yet I feel strongly that he is not entitled to demand some and really shouldn't even ask. I'm trying to unpack this.

I'm just thinking back to when spouse and I were at the "spending most of the weekend at my place" phase. Granted, he was neither really making nor saving money by doing so, but the thought of asking him to, say, chip in on rent or do more than buy groceries (which we just kind of handled casually) makes me feel...icky, somehow. I know that I saved a lot of money on buses or even the odd taxi because he gave me rides, and I think I would have been utterly stunned to be asked for gas money. I suppose I could see offering, especially if I were renting my car out, but if he'd asked for it... Maybe I'm not seeing this clearly, maybe my age is showing, here, but the way this LW is approaching this situation raises my hackles.

It may also be that I'm assuming the relationship is eventually going to change into something else that involves more finance-sharing. If that's not the case, then...no, I still feel kind of icky about it.

Yeah, him asking for rent/utilities money from her at this stage is going to feel icky to me no matter how you dice it. If they're not at the communication stage for talking about finances already, and if they're not automatically offering, then asking is going to feel wrong regardless.

I don't know that this is an age thing as much as a personal preference thing? I prefer very explicit up-front conversation about money at all stages of a relationship, because otherwise I find it's too easy for one party to begin to feel like the other one "owes" them something intangible for X, Y, or Z. And that's historically gone to icky places pretty fast, especially once you add gender into the mix. (I am reminded of this article from the 1960s, which takes a very old-fashioned approach to marital finance but with which I nonetheless agree on the basic point that preventing financial arrangements from becoming explicit is ultimately to the advantage of the person with more power, not the person with less.)

Edited 2016-04-21 21:08 (UTC)

I find it's too easy for one party to begin to feel like the other one "owes" them something intangible for X, Y, or Z. And that's historically gone to icky places pretty fast, especially once you add gender into the mix.

This.

And even without gender, like . . . I sort of have the feeling that nobody else in this thread has actually encountered someone who did this kind of thing very cold-bloodedly and deliberately in order to make as much money off a situation as possible? And that kind of exploitation is absolutely something I've encountered.

Where it's an issue of "if I live at his house then I save gas driving to work, utility use at my house [because the lights/heat/whatever aren't being used even if they're hooked up], I probably save on grocery money, and he won't feel able to ask me to contribute to his house stuff, so that's a good [whatever amount] right there." These people have been a feature of my life, from time to time, and they absolutely do exist.

And the smart ones will never do anything that QUITE crosses the line but will never the less come out of the eventual end of the relationship having made solid amounts of money off the person they're breaking up with.

I dunno.

Ennnh that is something I have come across.

And actually on re-reading I suspect that my attitude depends a lot on how accurate I feel if I told her I wanted to stay at her place and rent out mine, she would want some of the money is, and I'm finding that difficult to judge given, as you say, the idiolect problem of "getting a cut" and the lack of detail about... their actual respective financial situations.

Yeah. That's why my reaction is v much "insufficient data, cannot make any judgement."

Because I have ALSO encountered the kind of penny-pinching jerk who will literally count ever litre of gas they ever spend on you and hold it against you! and, like, everything in between. There can even be one of each in a relationship! And in fact I had another friend who was frigging BOTH. (Everyone else has horrible ex stories; mine were all platonic friends.) But, like.

"Trust but verify" is v much my general attitude in re money and any kind of relationship.

They do. My ex did this to me. My current spouse literally wrote him a check to get him off my back.

ugh that is AWFUL. I'm sorry that happened to you.

This is totally offtopic, but that Guardian article is AMAZING.

"I am not a warped spinster waving the feminist flag." I'm putting "warped spinster waving the feminist flag" on my business cards.

*tilts head* See, for me the gas-money comes to "okay but how much gas is he actually using up on me and how much does gas cost?"

Because frankly if he's adding a significant number of trips that he wouldn't otherwise have and gas is where it was, say, last year, then yeah I should absolutely be offering gas money, and especially if it's causing him a financial hit he is absolutely entitled to ask.

There are ways of asking that are crappier than others, but last year it cost me 60$ to fill the tank on my tiny super-efficient car and adding even one full tank to a month was a significant financial burden to me at the time. So unless there were something more or less equal being granted on the other side, I . . . would absolutely ask and expect to be asked, and would RATHER have it all out in the open because in my experience NOTHING sours a relationship worse and faster and in a more difficult-to-address-way than a sense of being taken advantage of, especially when there's actual real factors to back that up. (Like a 60$+ addition to expenses when you're paycheque to paycheque already.)

*nod*

Petrol and commute time can get REALLY messy, when what it amounts to is that the cost (financial and energy and time) for people to meet each other is significantly higher for one party.

It gets even messier if A can't drive, or for other reasons (like disability) can't go out very much, and B can drive but lives a long way from A.

I had a friendship group that handled that badly, where everyone but B lived relatively nearby and B lived an hour away, and yeah, it got very sour by the end. There were other factors, of course, but that was definitely a thing.

Yeeeeeah.

And sometimes there's no way to SOLVE the "A cannot drive, B lives an hour away", at least not completely? Or that for C due to disability lives with stricter limitations than A, B or D and so stuff has to work around that. But at least if it's out in the open you can do what you CAN, and you can make it so nobody feels like they're just being negligently taken for granted, etc etc.

Which is sort of why in terms of LW, I am all about " . . . okay so what are all the OTHER details?" because this stuff is very . . . *waves hand* there are many factors, for me. Including stuff like "are you getting your meals made for you and your kitchen cleaned when she's at your place?" because that is something to take into account.

And if you're feeling the need to count every coin one way or the other, it means something's wrong on a much bigger scale that you need to figure out, but that doesn't mean that keeping a general eye on balance, in as many words and out loud with communication, should be anathema.

Or that's how I feel, anyway.

And sometimes there's no way to SOLVE the "A cannot drive, B lives an hour away", at least not completely? Or that for C due to disability lives with stricter limitations than A, B or D and so stuff has to work around that. But at least if it's out in the open you can do what you CAN, and you can make it so nobody feels like they're just being negligently taken for granted, etc etc.

Yup. And that is exactly how it did not go down in the situation I was thinking of.

There were good reasons why we (I was D, and gave C lifts to A's place) arranged things the way they did, but what it all amounted to was that all the inconvenience and work and expense landed on B, and compounded with other stuff about how he felt sidelined and unappreciated.

Balance and communication are important in general, and even more so when there's other interpersonal/emotional stuff going on too. And whatever else is going on in LW's relationship, it does seem like they, as a couple, are not communicating explicitly about how they balance the relationship.

And also it seems like LW is writing to Abby for a referee rather than advice. Which might mean "I need a reality check on whether this is fair or not, because I'm getting bad gut feelings about this but don't have a concrete rationale for what's wrong," and that's a good reason to write in for advice. But it could also, and often does, mean "I want to use an advice columnist as a club to wave at my partner."

What bothers me about this arrangement is that it rules out the possibility of Girlfriend going home on days when there's a renter there. What if LW has a last-minute conflict and it isn't convenient to have her stay over? What if they have an argument and want their own space? Maybe their relationship is established enough for them to know that such issues are unlikely to come up for them, but if that's the case it seems odd to me that Girlfriend has apparently been Airbnbing her place for a while without mentioning it to LW.

If the LW had brought these problems up, I think I might have a very different picture of them and the situation. Maybe it got edited out, which is always a frustrating question.

Mmm, this is a valid point, but as cereta says the LW does not seem to have brought it up and honestly I'd... expect... to just go rent a hotel in that situation were I the girlfriend?

Yeah, I may be seeing something that just isn't an issue from LW's perspective. I think

xenacryst's comment below gets at my underlying concern — the couple's lack of communication — better than I did.

That's the big question, though, isn't it - IS the girlfriend working on the assumption that she'd go get a hotel room? Or is the girlfriend working on the assumption that she has a standing right to his space?

Neither is actually indicated by the letter, you know?

I mean, I would read the letter as implying that there is a standing assumption that she'll spend time there, and/or that she's letting it out at weekends when it's been agreed that she'll be visiting (and so hotel would only be necessary if they Had A Fight or whatever)? But also as THEY HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT ANY OF THIS because WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT.

There's a lot more going on here than mostly cohabiting, paying mortgages, and collecting Airbnb rent, isn't there? "Recently found out?" "Feel taken advantage of?" A feeling like the goose and the gander aren't getting the same? Either you're not as close a couple as you might imply, or (as is usually the case in these things) there's a whole lot of communication that isn't happening.

But be that as it may, you both own your own places, and, surprise, one of the perks of ownership is, to a large degree, being able to make your own decisions about how to run the place. She wants to Airbnb hers? That's her thing (unless the city steps in with its hoteliers' codes, but that's a different issue), and she's got no obligation to share the profits, at least from what you've told us. If you don't feel free to do the same, then that's an issue.

But I would caution against taking Abby's advice here, unless you know you want to steer your relationship into the cliffs. Opening the currently limited lines of communication with this topic is a pretty good recipe for having them snap back closed, hopefully not with your head caught in them. Instead, try to strengthen your communication skills in other ways - you know, basic things so that you don't have to "recently find out" about potentially important things, but that they're part and parcel of the stuff you talk about every day. Because I see no relationship here, just two people sharing space.

Hmmm...my immediate reaction was that LW's use of "girlfriend" -- and the lack of any previous discussion or negotiation -- settled the whole question. At present it's a non-issue. A "girlfriend" is not a business partner. Marriage is a business partnership, legally at very least and most often also in practice. If they were married, it'd be an issue that LW has the right to raise as financial decisions within marriage should be mutual and agreed upon in advance. But their relationship at present is not such that LW has financial rights or claims. LW can raise the issue and ask, but LW is not entitled to anything.

It may be relevant that I am 57 and a straight cis-woman who's lived and negotiated through any number of relationships, married and not, cohabiting and not.

I was about to post this same thing.

But I guess a lot of it depends on stuff he left out: ~~Does he rent? Are there roommates?~~ How much time does she spend at his place or he at hers during the week? How many weekends does she stay with him, and what is "a lot of the weekends?" Two a month? Four? How much money is she even getting from this?

I mean, if she had this place and never, ever stayed there, that would be one thing. I used to live in a place where the owner's son lived there and had his girlfriend living there with him rent-free and not on the lease even though she had her own apartment, and that did piss me off. But he says it right out: it doesn't really affect him. Hell, if she lives in the condo the rest of the time, I don't see how it's even really his business.

When I read the letter in the paper this morning, I actually said, "Why would you expect a cut?" out loud. Because come on, if your girlfriend is staying over on the weekends, you're presumably getting something out of the deal, whether it's nookie or someone cooking for you or companionship. It's not like she's turning all your lights and faucets on and putting the heat up to 94F and leaving, that you'd expect money in exchange.

Abby's advice just struck me as so weird. It seems to me like she's not coming out and saying that he's owed money, but there's a pretty heavy implication that the girlfriend is in the wrong if she doesn't sign right up with a smile to the idea of giving him her money.

(etf: I missed the bit about him having a mortgage payment. So no, presumably he doesn't rent.)

Edited 2016-04-21 21:50 (UTC)

For me this one becomes . . . all about other details of context? Basically, what's the REST of everything look like?

Because there are ways this could easily be awful on the part of girlfriend, depending on how much she's getting from Airbnb-ing vs her mortgage payment. If she's making money by living rent free at LW's place then yeah that's kind of shitty on her part, and that also puts the part where it hasn't come up before in a nastier light.

On the other hand, if the Airbnb-ing is just barely covering or not even covering the mortgage payments/etc, then this is not an issue and she may not have mentioned it previously because it literally didn't come up or occur to her that it was an issue.

It also depends how close to the margins either of them is; LW's wording about it not affecting them suggests they, at least, are not - but it's actually still only a suggestion, because there's a hella lot of assumptions he may be running on even if he's living from paycheque to paycheque, including gendered ones (ie it's not okay for him to ask her for household contributions, which is why he's now going "well this feels really unfair since I'm basically paying for her home but she's making money off renting her place out" but hasn't just outright said anything yet).

I will say that it is my general feeling that if she is spending most of her time at his house, she should be contributing to the upkeep of that house. How big a deal that is is, as noted, directly related to how close to the margins everyone is.

But in addition to that there's all kinds of other things, like - is this a one-off, unusual thing? Or is this part of a pattern of behaviours where technically all things are equal but she ends up coming out at a strong financial advantage? (I have met people like that.) Or in the other direction, is he always eyeing and penny-pinching and going "well but what about the gas-money for when I drove you blah"? How often does it actually happen - are we talking like a hundred bucks every two months maybe, or a substantial income?

These all change it, for me.

I mean there is obviously a communication flaw, but it's not even necessarily a huge Symptom of Wider Problem one so much as, as noted above, she may not actually even be making her mortgage payment back out of it so it's not like she's making much and it doesn't feel to her like it's a big deal and it just hasn't come up and now he's just stuck in a position he has no idea what the etiquette is.

*nod*

I thought Abby's suggestion was more about a couple being on the same page, rather than any one approach being right.

Instead of asking for money, the LW should suggest they divide where they spend their time together: half at his place, half at hers. Then he can rent out his home on AirBnB while he's staying at her condo. If the girlfriend objects, the LW can point out that it's unfair for her to take all the profit opportunities stemming from their cohabitation.

This assumes the LW is willing to put his place on AirBnB. If he isn't, he should just forget the whole thing. Renting one's home to visitors involves risk and some work: cleaning, coordinating with renters, etc. If the LW is unwilling to put in the work and assume the risks, then his girlfriend's AirBnB operation isn't costing him anything.

Edited 2016-04-22 15:40 (UTC)

I am on the side of the LW, I think. Because:

a) it's implied that the GF here was not open about this and it seems a strange thing never to have come up in conversation

b) the LW clearly feels that she would want a cut vice versa so it feels, especially combined with the above, that she has tried to conceal it in order to profit from the situation.

If it's more convenient to stay at his more often, that's fine and I wouldn't necessarily say that she should be giving him like a percentage of the airbnb rent but I do think she should be contributing to his bills - otherwise, she is essentially profiting massively from this, she's reducing her commute, getting air bnb rent and he is probably paying for all/most of the food at his place.

In his situation, I'd probably say something like "that sounds like a great idea, let's alternate weekends and I'll put my place on airbnb half the time as well".

Dear Abby: Relationship finances, sorta

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