agonyaunt | Two letters involving the possibility of converting religion for a romantic partner

Entry tags:

Two letters involving the possibility of converting religion for a romantic partner

1. Dear Prudence,

I’m a 31-year-old female living in Chicago who happened to fall in love with an Orthodox Jewish man. I was raised Catholic in the south. We met at work, began as friends, and that friendship blossomed into a very loving, supportive relationship that I honestly never saw coming. Part of that is because I was completely closed off from love. In my 29 years before I started dating him, I never dated anyone. I had the strongest of the strongest walls up. Completely cut off from anyone that gave me anything close to intimacy. Then came him. He slowly broke down my walls, and I learned how to love, how to be there in a relationship, and how to find myself in a relationship. He treats me extremely well, loves my family, and wants to marry me.

We’ve been dating for a year a half at this point, and I’m coming to terms with the fact that I should probably convert. I kosher-ized my kitchen, I’ve eaten at all Kosher restaurants, I’m reading all the required books for Orthodox conversion, and I am understanding more and more about Judaism. He’s met everyone in my family, come to family events, and come home with me multiple times (I live hours away from my family). I’ve met his brothers on basically one occasion and never met his father. His mother passed away two years ago. I don’t get to attend his family holidays, as I’m not Jewish.

I lost my best friend of 15 years when I started this relationship. She didn’t agree that I should take the risk, and didn’t like the difference in privacy that she and I had as I navigated this first-time relationship. She struggles with her own boundary issues that I think came into play during this new time of friendship.

So my question is this: Do I convert? My life would look different. I wouldn’t eat at the same restaurants, wouldn’t celebrate the same holidays, wouldn’t attend the same (two) religious services I grew up going to each year. I would make Shabbos each Friday evening, not using my phone or any other electricity for 25 hours every weekend. All for a man I love so dearly. So do I do it? Do I make the next step? What are your thoughts?

—Do I Convert

Dear Do I Convert,

I can’t imagine you’d be happier with your familiar holidays and two religious services and all-weekend-long electricity, but without the man you love. On the surface, converting seems like a no-brainer to me. So I have to wonder where your hesitation is coming from. Perhaps the question you need to ask yourself is about your relationship to Judaism. Does this faith resonate with you? Does it bring you comfort? Do you appreciate the guidance it provides for your life? Do you believe the things you’ve come across in religious texts? Do you feel you have something to offer to a new religious community? If so, you should definitely convert.
Similarly, if your answer is “I feel pretty neutral about it but I like the traditions and the people, and am willing to commit, respect the rules, and go all in because I love this guy so much” go ahead and do it!

However, if the truth is closer to “I really, really don’t believe in most of this and will feel resentful about the sacrifice every day, and by the way, I’m still upset about losing my best friend and think maybe she had a point,” put the brakes on. You can’t have a happy marriage without being a happy person, and if converting is going to turn you into someone who feels deprived and wonders about what else is out there for you, even your wonderful partner won’t be able to fix that.

Link one

************

2. Dear Prudence,

I met the woman I thought I’d spend my life with, and we were together for four years. As we got older and her extended family died and we started talking about kids, she became much more religious. Her religion passes through the maternal line, and so she says it’s very important for her as part of the family. She eventually gave me an ultimatum: Convert or break up. I love her, but I’m an atheist and the best I would be able to do is lie my way through, which is a bad foundation for marriage. We broke up and it’s been two years, but I still miss her. Recently she reached out and said she’d changed her mind and wants to try again, and I don’t have to convert. I don’t even know how to start thinking about this. What should I do?

—Second Time Is or Isn’t a Charm

Dear Second Time,

There’s obviously something special between the two of you. Give it another try. For six months. Use this time to hear about what’s changed with her relationship to her religion, and whether she could truly be happy with someone who didn’t convert. And do your own check-in about whether you feel as excited about her as you once did, and whether you can trust her not to make any more major life changes that result in her saying “Do what I want or it’s over.”

Link two

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

1. I have a few concerns here. First of all is the fact that this is the only person LW has ever dated. As a rule, I would advise anybody to date around a little bit more before they get married... or at least date a little longer first. This isn't normally something I'd say to people in their 30s, but let's look at the other concerns: she's already lost a friend over this, and his family does not appear to like her. It's that last one that really gave me pause.

"I don’t get to attend his family holidays, as I’m not Jewish."

I have attended religious holidays in an Orthodox home and I wasn't even the person invited. My sister (also not Jewish) was invited and she dragged me along, a habit she only started to kick after she had children. And this woman can't go to holidays with her boyfriend until she converts? And he's telling her that this is normal, everything is fine? This is not normal. And yes, you can be married to somebody whose family is very cold to you... but it's not fun, especially if your partner doesn't admit that there's a problem.

As for converting, LW should really ask herself if she'd be okay converting if her boyfriend dropped dead tomorrow. Because if the answer is "no" then she really should reconsider.

2. LW2, I'd seriously recommend that you two have some couples counseling before you make any real commitments in this relationship, if you choose to rekindle it at all. Somebody who was firmly on the conversion train two years ago is unlikely to have completely changed her opinions today.

That line gave me pause, too. I've been to family holiday celebrations and religious ceremonies (granted, Reform, so I didn't know if there was a difference with Orthodox), albeit when I was giving serious consideration to converting. But even if she weren't allowed to attend holiday functions, one would think the family would make room for her at, say, Tuesday night dinner.

That line screeched in my head as well.

I really hope LW #1 talks to an actual rabbi, or rather, three, so that each only has to turn her down once.

As for #2 -- I kinda sorta was that girlfriend (I was a teenager, marriage was not in play, and the timeframe was 6 months not 2 years) and I'd discourage LW. I was in the throes of dealing with my own religious agitas and should not have dragged anyone else into it (although admittedly I was a teenager).

Perhaps she should ask those rabbis the Jewish perspective on guests at holidays, because I strongly suspect the answer would be enlightening.

Perhaps she should ask those rabbis the Jewish perspective on guests at holidays, because I strongly suspect the answer would be enlightening.

Something I learned from, of all things, a Lord of the Rings Jewish AU Passover fic: https://archiveofourown.org/works/18025313

Thank you for that link! I've made my own Haggadah, and I could go for a LOTR crossover version. Before Rowling was so obviously cruel, I had gotten a few crossover works between Judaism and the Potterverse. See Rabbi Moshe Rosenberg's books.

The Invitation - Let all who are hungry, come and eat! Let all who are in need, come and celebrate Pesach with us! "In need" is considered a spiritual hunger for meaning, and not just starving for food.

I grew up in Atlantic City, last stop of a jitney (small bus public transit) route, and it was explained very carefully to me that even if a drunk walked up the stairs and inside our house with that invitation, we would feed them. After all, it might be Elijah! 🤷‍♀️😄🔯

Re #1: Yeah, that's weird. I am Jewish but very very not Orthodox, and if the LW is actively considering conversion (she kashered her kitchen) and her boyfriend's family is still shunning her? Something's off. And what I suspect is off leads me to a deeper concern: I suspect this family may not be Modern Orthodox, they're one of the smaller ultra-Orthodox sects, and the LW's boyfriend is keeping her away from his religious community because he worries that if she sees how the community treats women, she will run.

If LW's boyfriend comes from an ultra-Orthodox community and is actively dating a non-Jewish woman then maybe he needs to do some deep thinking of his own.

I would be VERY CURIOUS about the boyfriend's perspective on this relationship.

Yes, it would really be very strange for a man who is (we would assume from the letter) shomer Shabbos and shomer kashrus and whose family frowns on him dating someone non-Jewish to be in this relationship without having had some serious conversations about their potential future as a married couple, how they would relate to his family, what their home life together would look like given their differing religious practices, how they would raise their children, etc.

And if she does convert... Judaism is not a religion to practice in isolation. Keeping Shabbos isn't just about not using your phone for 25 hours, it's also about spending that time with family and community. Is her boyfriend's family/community going to welcome her with open arms and be a replacement for the friends she's already lost, or is she still going to be left on the outer once she converts?

It makes me wonder whether the boyfriend is actually all that observant now, or if she just doesn't spend Shabbos with him as she's not welcome in Jewish community? If not, why not, as a potential convert? And if he keeps kosher, how did it go with bringing him to her family events? Were they able to cater to his dietary needs? Strict kashrus is incredibly hard to cater for, so if he and his family are as observant as she's making out, then would he even have been able to eat anything her family served at all?

I am converting to Judaism (not for a romantic partner but because I am called to it) and the "not allowed at holidays" thing threw me, too. I've definitely attended holiday celebrations in people's homes and at synagogues; I've been called by a Modern Orthodox rabbi (who knew I am converting but not converted) to dress the Torah. This makes me wonder if LW's love interest is a member of one of the more extreme (dare I say, "cultish"?) sects of Orthodox Judaism or if her boyfriend's family is going to be nasty to her even if she does convert.

As for converting, LW should really ask herself if she'd be okay converting if her boyfriend dropped dead tomorrow. Because if the answer is "no" then she really should reconsider.
Any rabbi will ask her the same question. Chabad has a whole agony aunt letter about this from the boyfriend's perspective: No, you cannot convert her. … She must do that herself. And it must not be a conversion either, but a giur. Meaning that she must come, as did Ruth, on her own volition, "because your people are my people and your G‑d is my G‑d." If it is in any other way, it is a lie, and certainly you do not wish upon yourself the cruelty to force another to live a lie.

I guess it seems strange that LW does not know this? She's gone through the effort of kashering her kitchen(!!) but nobody's told her this very basic information about conversion?

Edited 2024-08-11 00:28 (UTC)

And that’s why missionaries are illegal in Israel, and why you have to approach the rabbi(s) three times to establish enthusiastic consent: Jews have been pressured to convert (or at least fake it) for so long from so many cultures that it’s become one of Judaism’s defining things that We Don’t Do Around Here, Period.

(Chabad, if I understand it correctly, is outreach to fellow Jews who may be lineal and exploring their heritage, or lapsed, or secular but seeking a deeper understanding of their religious identity; I’ll welcome correction if I’m mistaken.)

(Chabad, if I understand it correctly, is outreach to fellow Jews who may be lineal and exploring their heritage, or lapsed, or secular but seeking a deeper understanding of their religious identity; I’ll welcome correction if I’m mistaken.)

Chabad is extremely annoying and it can be nearly impossible to shake them if they think you are Jewish, just lying to them. I gotta wonder how many people do lie to them to get them to go away. Source: Man, I just wanted to do my shopping, I certainly wasn't sneakily refusing to light Chanukkah candles because reasons.

Thank you for the field report—I sit corrected! I don’t generally set off people’s Jewdar, so aggressive proselytization from Chabad is something I’ve not experienced.

I shouldn't set it off either, being that I'm not Jewish but... well. I don't quite approve of their politics, either.

But if you need a free menorah, I've heard they can provide that for you.

Edited 2024-08-12 00:16 (UTC)

(The funniest part about this is that I actually do keep track of when the holiday is, because if I didn't limit my donuts-and-fried-potatoes consumption I'd eat those literally all the time, and with bacon too. But I wouldn't say I observe it, because that'd be really weird.)

Chabad does only proselytize to people they believe to be Jews, you were right about that. They can be wrong, but they never intend to create new Jews, they just want to make ba'alei teshuva (converts from secular or non-chassidic/non-haredi Judaism to Chabad).

Oh, I'm not a Chabad fan - I realized that might not be clear from my post. It was more like "even Chabad doesn't think someone should convert for marriage unless they feel called to Judaism." (… but Chabadniks also don't believe in intermarriage and their FAQ on the issue strongly implies if not outright states that Judaism is genetic so whop knows if they'd even accept LW's conversion as valid?)

yeah, that was my record-scratch freeze frame moment. I was raised in an orthodox home with catholic neighbors at our religious celebrations; I brought my non-jewish friends to every pesach and rosh hashana and some shabboses; my catholic buds came to my bas mitzvah in my orthodox shul. If he's telling her that she's too goyishe to attend family events, there's something else going on and he's blaming Judaism.

I kinda think that you should convert only if the religion you're converting to speaks to you. LW1 seems to be thinking about it only in terms of logistics (Shabbos, and keeping kosher) and habits (not going to the two religious services she's been attending all her life) and not in terms of actual religion. Also, for someone who's thinking to convert because of her partner, the letter seems strangely devoid of his opinion. Have they talked about it? What does he thinks?

Note that Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor persisted in their adopted Judaism for the rest of their lives, long outlasting their respective marriages to Arthur Miller and Mike Todd.

If the religion in LW2's situation is Judaism, which it might be, I've heard from people whose opinions on Judaism I trust that atheist Jews are A Thing, and that the more important thing is to follow whatever version of the practices that the local community follows. And LW would have to be comfortable with any children being raised in the religion, regardless of whether or not they believe in their own heart.

I am Jewish, raised Reform, but now hanging out with the Jewish mystics whose founder/teacher was ordained by the last Lubavitcher rebbe, and served in the beginnings of their Chabad and Hillel growths.

For #1, the first thing that occurred to me is "has the boyfriend been previously married within the Jewish community?" Because this sounds like the type of man who has a wife who is civilly divorced, but not Jewishly (a get is required for the woman to remarry, but since a man is "permitted but not recommended" to have two wives, some rabbis will perform the second marriage in THAT case). That she's not being invited to Pesach Seder or Shabbos meals, sounds to me like the boyfriend is trying to keep her from finding out she'll not only be his second wife, but his SECONDARY wife, because until he frees his first wife, much of the community will definitely treat this prospective convert as having little place within the Jewish community. Look up "agunot" about these chained wives' situations.

In both cases, I sincerely believe that converting for someone is not a good reason to convert to Judaism. One should only convert if they truly feel that this Jewish way of life is more coming home for that person and not for anyone else.

Edited (Fixed italics I hope. ) 2024-08-11 17:47 (UTC)

What sort of asshole refuses to divorce his wife after he's divorced his wife?

Oh, just proves every people has their own assholes to me. Basically, the man does not want to pay out the "dowry", would be the closest word I think. Part of the ketubah, marriage contract (yes, we have a long tradition of prenuptial agreements!), says the man must pay out a significant amount of money to the woman when he divorces her. There are now Jewish lawyers who are having "properly grant a get to the woman" added to the civil divorce agreement. But these codicils are only being used in areas that know about this issue. In Israel the rabbis have enough authority to imprison the man until he "voluntarily chooses to grant the get", but obviously no such authority in other places.

Now, abusers are going to abuse in any way they can which includes religious abuse in this case, but I'm more angry at the specific rabbis who are willing to enable this abusive behavior as long as it's the men acting like this.

There was an Israeli case where the woman would not accept the get a few years ago, and she was imprisoned until agreeing to accept the divorce, if I remember correctly. Link: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-precedent-rabbis-send-woman-to-jail-for-refusing-divorce-from-her-husband/

Edited (Added link) 2024-08-12 00:20 (UTC)

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a gang of ultra-Orthodox... vigilantes who, presumably for a fee but I don't know, would go around roughing up men who refused to sign off of the get.

Normally I don't approve of vigilante tactics or, to be honest, half the shit we hear about any fringe religious group doing, but I found it hard to get too worked up about this one.

Heard about that group too, and we seem to have similar feelings about that group. 🤷‍♀️

I'm in the Philadelphia area, and our kosher certification was started by the Conservative movement, so there's definitely cultural differences between the greater Jewish community here, and say Lakewood NJ or New York City for examples.

Because I know enough, I deal pretty well with Chabad. As being born Reform Jewish, but considered as returning to more Torah observance, as long as I'm trying to choose better and I have thought about it, I have a certain leeway. The only thing that makes me cranky is that certain observances are limited to those AMAB. I want to learn how to lay tefillin, the prayer straps on left arm and head, but no one with a set will permit me, as a woman. But Rashi's eldest daughter did, under the idea that women may also assume the obligation, even if they are excused from the time-based commandments. Sigh.

One of the other hospital chaplains was a Chabad rabbi, he was kind and he made certain I wasn't Jewishly ignorant, which would be his responsibility to teach me if I asked.

I concur with others, there's some shenanigans here, the Orthodox boyfriend isn't being fully honest with LW1. I am also detecting more than a whiff of lovebombing here, with all this 'breaking down walls' for someone who has never previously had a relationship.

There is no prohibition on non-Jews attending Jewish holidays, so there's something else going on. The worst case is as

librarygeek pointed out, some kind of bigamy situation. A slightly less horrible possibility is that the boyfriend doesn't want anyone to know he's dating LW, because the relationship itself can be a bar to conversion. Some rabbis, mostly Orthodox but it's not unheard of in other denominations, will say that someone who is dating a Jewish partner isn't really sincere about becoming Jewish, they're "only" doing it to please their partner. And further, in an Orthodox context where it's forbidden for Jewish people to date non-Jews, you can get into a Catch-22 where if you were really sincere about being Jewish, you would do your best to keep Jewish laws, and that includes not dating someone Jewish when you yourself are not Jewish.

To be clear that's still not good; he's essentially asking LW to lie for him and approaching the conversion process from a starting place of dishonesty is a very good way to get turned down. The "refuse three times" thing is a bit of a myth, but there are stringent checks to make sure the potential convert is sincere, and lying about your motivations in that context is a big red flag.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Two letters involving the possibility of converting religion for a romantic partner

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject