agonyaunt | (no subject)

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Dear Care and Feeding,

I have been very happy with my daughter’s kindergarten teachers, with one tiny exception. At her parent-teacher conference, one of her teachers greeted me with, “I feel like I never see you around here, Mom!” I’m a working mom with complicated feelings about not being able to pick up my daughter every day, so that stung! (And I’d guess that more than 90 percent of the moms at this Brooklyn school are in the same boat.) I didn’t respond in the moment, but I am considering writing her to let her know that this stuck with me, so she doesn’t lay the mom guilt on anyone else at the next event. (As an aside, my husband was at the conference too, has rarely been around the school because he also works full time, and his non-presence was not remarked upon.) The school focuses on teaching children about inclusive language and thoughtful communication. So the question is: should I say something? Or am I letting my own conflicted feelings potentially complicate my relationship with my daughter’s teacher?

—Working Mom

Dear WM,

I’m sure your conflicted feelings colored your reaction—but I am also sure that the teacher slipped up here. She was “just making conversation,” as we say, but the conversation she made was unfortunate (old timey societal conventions die hard, don’t they?). If you can find an incredibly graceful, generous, and compassionate way to mention this, I’d say go for it. She will be embarrassed, but—given the school’s culture and expectations, and the fact that you have found her to be otherwise wonderful—one can hope she’ll also be grateful to have her faux paus gently pointed out to her. (It isn’t your relationship with her I’d worry about, by the way; it’s the possibility that if she feels insulted, she’ll unconsciously take it out on your kid.) You might try something on the order of, “I’m sure you meant nothing by it, and I feel almost ashamed to mention it, but as a working mother who wishes she could be in two places at the same time, your comment about not seeing me around hit me hard.” (I confess that I would probably be tempted to add, “My husband was relieved he wasn’t called out in this way!” but since that’s passive-aggressive, I would hope I’d be able to resist.)

Or—you know—you could just let the whole thing go. Especially if it isn’t other similarly situated mothers you’re concerned about (look into your heart!), but you mostly want to make her feel as bad as she made you feel. Life’s too short for that.

—Michelle

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Okay, look: I probably would either "let it go" (more like stew in silence) or write an incredibly hedged email, but I'm (a) unhealthily conflict-avoidant and (b) not a professional advice columnist. I do agree that anything said on the subject should be delicately phrased, for pretty much the same reason Michelle says, but LW isn't wrong about it being a tactless thing for the teacher to have said, or about the gender issue, especially if the school really does have a focus on inclusivity. The "I'm almost ashamed to bring it up" is way too much, and the "look into your heart" advice is just condescending.

Ugh, that advice.

It's not wrong to complain! Politely, but firmly. Otherwise, what's the alternative? To let them keep doing it and keep doing it until, when they finally get pushback, they say "Well! You're the only person who's complained, so it must not be a problem!"

I'm torn.

I have said things I immediately and hugely regretted. A couple times I was scolded later and because it was "merely" social I could just never talk to the other person again, but a teacher can't do that.

Maybe I'm being too sympathetic, but if this is the only sexist thing the teacher has said, and my daughter isn't coming home talking about all the things she can't do because she's a girl -- maybe make a note of it, but hold off on comment for now, and if the teacher continues in this vein even once more, send that email ? Or maybe I'm excusing bad behavior. I am not sure.

God knows I have blurted out things I regretted saying, but...okay, this might sound sanctimonious, but I think it would be a kindness to the teacher to point out that such a remark might be ill-received by moms who are already feeling society's incredibly gender-biased pressure to be active in their child's school (being room parents, etc). I don't think LW should rip the teacher up one side and down the other, but I think it would be healthier for every for her to say something gently worded about it.

Agree. As the parent of an elementary school kid who works full-time outside the home, the way schools are forced to rely on the volunteer labor of parents (during the day, during the week!) absolutely infurates me. That this labor falls largely on mothers, and therefore the teachers see the absence of the mother as the problem and it would occur to them to comment on it? Is even more grating. It's yet another way that schools are not set up to function in an environment where both parents are employed AT LEAST 40 hours a week, if not more. (I will happily admit that it's not the school's fault; it's a systemic issue perpetuated by largely male lawmakers at multiple levels of government, and... well. Right now I'm PARTICULARLY outraged at the way mothers in the U.S. are expected to bear the brunt of caregiving and the systems that do exist to help them in the summer are somehow expensive, inefficient, AND insufficient to cover an 8-hour work day, but also we're made to feel guilty for not allowing our kids to have long, lazy, summer days where they have appropriate summer-like activities while their mothers... I don't know, somehow don't have to work in the summer?)

Yeah, on further thought and further comments I think Mom should drop the teacher a line. We cannot know what's in the teacher's mind, only her actions -- I realized I was envisioning the teacher internally cringing and thinking "omg I just sounded judgy towards working mothers, I do NOT mean that, let's quickly move on and I hope no one noticed," but I realized I was adding that envisioning.

Now I'm wondering why I did. I'm normally very protective of working mothers.

Edited 2023-07-18 17:02 (UTC)

Well, you've worked at a school, so you've seen the other side of things, dealing with difficult/prickly/defensive parents. I do think it would be best for the LW to assume that the teacher didn't mean anything malicious, and just spoke without thinking. That would let her word a note that would be good for both her and the teacher.

I am also protective of good teachers, that is true. I see what you mean here

if this is the only sexist thing the teacher has said, and my daughter isn't coming home talking about all the things she can't do because she's a girl

Here is the thing, though, such comments like the ones the teacher made give the implicit message "Moms are expected to show up." If a kid was listening, they didn't hear "Mom can't do X" they heard "Moms are expected to show up more at school." If the comment was "I feel like I never see you around here Mom & Dad!" then the implicit message becomes "parents are expected to show up more at school." And if one parent is showing up at school more than the other? No need to even say anything. A simple "nice to see you again" is fine. We should not be rewarding fathers for being active fathers in their kids' lives - that should be the expectation, the same way it has been the expectation that moms are active mothers in their kids' lives for generations.

I get it - I have also blurted out things without thinking and had regret, too, but I also don't think a follow up “I’m sure you meant well, but as a working mother who wishes she could be in two places at the same time, your comment about not seeing me around hit me hard." is the end of the world, either. A simple "Thank you for letting me know. A lot of our kids come from two income families. I apologize for the impact my question made on you. From what darling $Kid'sName has told me, you and your partner are doing a great job, mom! I will be sure to stop asking this question going forward" is all the response that is needed.

If the teacher did realize she was in the wrong - really no reason to grovel. If she didn't - also no reason to grovel.

Oh I know what's wrong with the teacher's statement. ~~I'm just not sure the teacher doesn't know, as opposed to having misspoken.~~ on further consideration, this doesn't really matter, does it? Now I'm questioning myself as to why my first thought was to side with the teacher -- as I said to Cereta upthread I'm usually really protective of working mothers (growing up fundamentalist and then leaving can do that to a person)

If she does know there's no real harm reminding her and if she doesn't know it would be a benefit to both her and all the other parents and students to let her know. No one died of embarassment.

Edited 2023-07-18 17:05 (UTC)

If she does know there's no real harm reminding her and if she doesn't know it would be a benefit to both her and all the other parents and students to let her know. No one died of embarrassment.

100%! And if she realized before she gets the note - she may be too embarrassed to say something about it. I've been there. A friendly "Hey, please don't" provides the opportunity for closure if teacher realized after "oh no."

I think not keeping this to herself would do the mother some good, however:
What does she want to achieve?

1. If she wants the teacher to reflect on her behaviour, it really depends on how she reads the teacher's personality. How will the feedback bear the most fruit? In a direct, private conversation? In a general e-mail that doesn't name any names? In a short written note? In any case, if she really cares about giving the teacher space to grow... it won't be about what makes the mom feel better but what seems the most effective way. (And allows for some grace.)

That, however, is a lot of work to put in after you've already been hurt.

2. When it comes to her feelings, envisioning what she'd like to do and talking it out with people who aren't involved at all (e.g. her colleagues) might help her let off steam and let it go. The next crisis is just around the corner, anyway (speaking as a parent, here).

Generally, though, I agree that her hopes of this not happening at all considering the policies of the school are very valid. And of fucking course the teacher in question is a woman, too! That just adds insult to injury. Obviously, it's a systemic problem, but it still stings.

Edited 2023-07-18 07:38 (UTC)

The school focuses on teaching children about inclusive language and thoughtful communication.

Then the teachers need to know how to receive the information that something they said didn’t come across the way they intended it to, because that’s a vital skill in using language inclusively and thoughtfully. And if they can’t handle that, they can’t teach the skill. I’m disappointed that Michelle advised Working Mom to use self-shaming and -blaming language to address what the teacher said. And it’s entirely reasonable to point out to the teacher that her husband didn’t receive such comments. It’s only passive-aggressive if you add the snarky bit that he was “relieved”.

Why on earth would you leave out the blatant sexism if you’re already speaking up??

Edited 2023-07-18 11:51 (UTC)

To my knowledge, nobody has ever commented to Spouse that he should be more involved (indeed, involved at all) in our kids' schools. And he's a stay-at-home parent who would have time. And as far as I can tell, he feels no guilt about not participating in the schools.

My male coworkers who are the primary caregivers (our employer is more flexible with employees needing to leave for a couple of hours in the middle of the day and they work from home) regularly complain at how often the school will call their wife first even though their contact information is listed as the first parent to call.

I can only assume at this point, they just rip the receptionist a new one because"call dad first" is right there in front of the receptionist when they go to call the caregiver of the kids, and they still choose to call mom. They have about three or four kids each, so it's very rarely a receptionist's first rodeo when they need to call my coworkers.

At one of my kid’s previous schools, we were listed as “call dad if issue is before noon, call mom if issue is after noon” because we both work from home but I work at night, so I’m asleep in the morning.

The first time they needed to talk to us in the morning but didn’t call my husband, and instead waited to talk to me that afternoon, they were politely corrected that if our attention is needed, they 100% can and should call my husband in the morning; he works from home, is just as involved a parent, and is just as capable to handle anything as I am. The second time that happened, we let them have it.

The mistake was not made a third time.

This all just reminds me of the hilarious fact that people in high school (including teachers) genuinely thought I was lying about having a dad, because he never attended any concerts, events, parent-teacher meetings, etc. They were totally chill about that, but got very upset if my mother couldn't show up for something, despite their assumption that she was a single mother and their knowledge that she was a doctor.

(Before anyone makes any assumptions, my dad was the stay-at-home partner who cooked, cleaned, kissed boo-boos, disentangled our arguments, ironed our uniforms, and got us to bed on time. He was usually doing so for my younger sister while my mother attended school stuff... and anyway he's mostly deaf and uses a walking stick so most of my school stuff was not in the slightest bit accessible.)

It isn’t your relationship with her I’d worry about, by the way; it’s the possibility that if she feels insulted, she’ll unconsciously take it out on your kid.

This is always my first consideration when dealing with my kids' teachers. I have liked and appreciated their teachers, but when I have felt frustrated with one of them, I've forced myself to wait and engage calmly and kindly, and only when absolutely necessary, because I want to avoid intentional or subconscious retribution against my child.

I hesitate to say what I would do in LW's place. I'm not a woman, so I don't experience the sexist expectations LW does. I wouldn't be in this situation. But I think for most parents, the potential ramifications on the child would factor into the decision.

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