agonyaunt | (no subject)

(no subject)

Dear Care and Feeding,

I have a newborn daughter and a toddler son. I lost both my parents before either was born, and the only remaining grandparent they have is my husband’s father, an, err, eccentric roaming nomad who uprooted his life after the death of his wife. He has met neither of my children and it remains a sore spot for me as I mourn my parents and the wonderful grandparents they would have been to my kids, just as they were to my nieces and nephew. I think having elders in a child’s life is important, though, and so my brother-in-law’s parents have been more than happy to swoop in.

My BIL’s parents send typical cheesy holiday cards and gifts to my kids, things like matchy outfits, and refer to themselves with cutesy grandparent names, but I find myself struggling to accept this on several levels. First, it feels a bit…unearned? They live too far away to do any babysitting or help in any other way, and even when they visit, their health issues keep them from being as hands-on with the children as real grandparents would be. Honestly, I like them fine for brief visits, but they are very traditional and not the affectionate, funny, and worldly people my parents were. As much as they ask me for pictures of my children, and want to visit often, I have a gnawing resentment that they are here and my parents are not.

And then there’s this: they give my kids small gifts, while I know my niece—their actual grandchild—stands to inherit a lot of money from them (several million dollars, in fact). We are comfortable and don’t need their financial help, but it irks me that they swoop in, playacting as grandparents for the fun of it, and bragging about my kids to their friends and congregation, but we have no idea if they intend for my kids to inherit anything. Can I get a reality check here? Am I holding them to the lofty standards of the memory of my parents or does it read like these people are getting the grandparent experience on the cheap?

—Mourning Mama

Dear MM,

I’m deeply sorry about the loss of your parents—that’s a terrible blow—but I’m afraid your grief does not excuse your awfulness. These people are stepping (not swooping!) in and offering your children love. “Small” gifts or not, inclusion in their wills or not, getting down on the floor to play with them or not, they want to be a part of your children’s lives. The more love and kindness, the more pleasure taken in their very existence, the better. The reality check here is manifold: yes, it’s a great pity your parents aren’t alive to be the grandparents you wanted for your children—and sure, I understand how pissed off you are by your father-in-law’s uninvolvement (though it sounds to me like he’s neck-deep in his own mourning, so maybe cut him some slack)—but this bonus set of grandparents is a gift. In fact, anyone who wants to be a part of your children’s lives, who pays attention to them, who widens the circle of love around them, is a gift. Don’t be churlish about this because it isn’t precisely the gift you have in mind.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/03/when-kids-dont-send-thank-you-notes-parenting-advice.html

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LW does, in fact, need a reality check, and possibly therapy. Right now she is very unpleasant.

They live too far away to do any babysitting or help in any other way, and even when they visit, their health issues keep them from being as hands-on with the children as real grandparents would be.

So, LW, if your parents were alive but with those same health issues, or living far away, they'd cease being "real grandparents"? Just say that a few times and think about what you're actually saying.

And then there’s this: they give my kids small gifts, while I know my niece—their actual grandchild—stands to inherit a lot of money from them (several million dollars, in fact).

Right now, in the present day, are they giving your niece big and fantastic gifts? Or are you trying to drive a wedge between them for something that might happen sometime hopefully far in the future?

But LW, if this is something that's really troubling you, have you considered asking them about it? I mean, the way you act I'm sure you'll manage to blow it all up, but there's got to be a somewhat tactful way to ask this question of whether or not your kids are getting anything, because I do sorta agree that if, upon their death, they give their grandkid everything and their not grandkids nothing it'll likely make your kids feel like crap and possibly torpedo their relationship with their cousin.

does it read like these people are getting the grandparent experience on the cheap?

FFS, how much do you expect people to pay to be grandparents, and would you hold your own parents to that standard, just send them a bill every month?

Yes, all of this.

I would not bring up potential inheritances -- I'd simply assume that it's definitely not going to happen, and leave room for the very small chance to be pleasantly surprised.

Everything else: yes, this.

Nobody is guaranteed a monetary inheritance and certainly not whoever your kids are legally to these people (certainly not heirs). Sheesh. Take the gifts they are giving of attention, affection, and enthusiasm for your kids.

Wow.

LW: having elders in a child's life is important!
Also LW: No, not like that*

* where "that" is "giving gifts and affection"

This! I was like, great! the BIL's parents to the rescue! And then she promptly hoses everything down with vinegar. Total whiplash.

Yup.

LW, they aren't your parents and they can't be, but they are making an effort to be in your kids' lives in a positive manner. Talk to a professional about how to forgive them (and your FIL) for not being your parents, because that's not actually a fault of theirs.

LW's grandparent expectations are far and above normal grandparenting. Regular grandparents are frequently unable to babysit, help around the house, or roughhouse with kids. That's just normal. Cheesy holiday cards and little gifts are exactly what grandparents do.

Regarding the inheritance issue: *does family math*

The BIL's parents are the kids' granduncle and grandaunt by marriage. Yes, they are trying to include the kids in the grandparent experience, but it's not like they've formally adopted LW or anything. Is it normal to expect one's children to inherit anything from their granduncle/aunt? Because I don't really feel like that's normal, but it's not like my family would have any experience with this kind of thing.

Also, +1 for therapy. LW's grief is pickling her. It's not a good way to go.

I had a large number of great-aunts in my life and none of them left me anything in their wills. I do still have gifts the two closest to me gave me while they were alive--some jewelry and other small family keepsakes from one, and a handmade rug and blanket from another.

I'm glad to have those and to have known them, but I didn't expect any money from any of them.

(Okay admittedly in one case that's because of a Dickensian family situation involving kidnapping and lawsuits and if there HAD been any money left after the whole thing was resolved my mother, not me, would probably would have gotten a large share of it, but there wasn't.)

That's about the speed I was thinking (some gifts but no $$$). Sans Dickensian family situation!

LW's grandparent expectations are far and above normal grandparenting.

Yeah, she made me do a mental inventory in my head of my own grandparents.

Paternal grandfather: dead before I was born.
Maternal grandfather: divorced from my grandmother and mostly estranged from my mom's family, lived airplane distances away, I can count the number of times I met him on my fingers.
Paternal grandmother: lived airplane distances away, twice yearly visits that she mostly spent with adults, loving but distant.
Maternal grandmother: lived nearby and did some babysitting on occasion, but certainly didn't play with my sisters and I. She was loving and kind but also mostly just wanted to keep us out of trouble and watch her soaps.

And my maternal grandmother's presence in my life growing up was greater than the presence of grandparents in most of my friends' lives. Maybe LW herself had the storybook grandparent experience growing up? But not a lot of people get that, in my experience.

Edited 2023-03-13 21:08 (UTC)

Your experience tracks with mine.

- Paternal grandfather: died the year I was born.
- Maternal grandfather: loved us, but had no idea how to relate to us. Saw him every year at holidays right up until he died a few years ago, but he only really had any relationship with my mom.
- Paternal grandmother: Saw at holidays; had no idea what to do with kids; legendarily bad at presents. The couple babysitting sessions we had with her alone are memorably painful.
- Maternal grandmother: About the same as yours. My favorite; we loved to visit her but mostly did our own thing at her house. She was in no physical shape to play with us. Mostly I remember being able to just talk to her.

I did inherit a bit from one set of great uncle and great aunt, but they were childless and didn't really have any family left other than my grandmother's descendants, whose lives they'd always been a part of (there were like thirty cousins at that point, though, so I didn't inherit much.)

We also did have a sort of grandparent relationship with my aunt-in-law's parents on the other side, which was a much smaller family and also they lived just down the road from my grandparents. I got a few keepsakes from them and their son when they died.

If LW lets these people have an ongoing positive role in their kids' lives, they might leave her kids something. Probably not as much as the grandkids, but who can say. Also, who cares??? Why are you asking these questions at this point in the relationship???? You're all reasonably well off, nobody is planning to die anytime soon, it literally does not matter.

(and like you said, they are doing perfectly reasonable normal levels of grandparenting! I think LW has some issues about missing her parents and building up expectations of who they could have been - but lots of grandparents are old and have health issues and live accross the country.)

Childlessness would definitely tilt the situation. My brother's kids will get anything I have (which won't be much) just because I won't have anyone else to worry about.

Also, who cares??? Why are you asking these questions at this point in the relationship????

That's the other huge thing. It's understandable if LW has death on the brain at the moment, but they're just getting started with the kids. Worrying about the distribution of the millions just seems petty right now.

Agreed!

LW's grief is pickling her. It's not a good way to go.

This is a really accurate way of describing it. Whew!

Just so much vinegar! It's all I could get on first read.

All 5 of my grandparents lived in the Midwest while I grew up in New Jersey, so my brother and I only saw them twice a year at most. I have positive memories of all of them, but I would only say I was actively close to my maternal grandmother and my paternal step-grandmother, since those are the two who I got to know as an adult. I feel like this is not uncommon!

I inherited precisely NOTHING from any of my great-aunts and great-uncles, and wasn't expecting anything either. I also inherited nothing from my grandparents except a moderate bequest from my step-grandmother, because they willed everything to their kids, not their grandkids. Is willing stuff directly to one's grandchildren a common expectation these days?

Is willing stuff directly to one's grandchildren a common expectation these days?

I don't know if it's common, but it's not unheard of. My maternal grandmother left a lot to my brother and me, rather than my mother, as we were minors and so didn't have to pay tax on it. If she'd lived until we were adults, she might have changed the will, who knows? Paternal grandmother did live into our adulthood and left us a small bequest each, the majority of her estate going to my father and his sisters.

Ah yes, the tax implications!

Most places there's no tax difference, though.

Two of my grandparents died before I was born and didn't have anything much to leave, and a third left everything to his wife, the one grandparent I knew really well. She outlived both her children, so we did inherit directly from her. Her sister, who was unmarried and childless and had inherited family money due to taking care of her old uncle, left half her estate to her niece and nephew and the other half among her great-nieces and -nephews. I remember my mother being slightly grumpy about this (not more than slightly) as the previous family custom had been to leave money down at most one generation at a time.

they willed everything to their kids, not their grandkids

I was so busy wondering why she thought granduncles/aunts should add a line to their will that I completely blew by the fact that BIL will actually be their most likely heir. (Outside of any direct gifts to the grand-whatevers, which may be more common if you have millions to distribute, I suppose, but I agree is more rare otherwise.) Be good to Uncle, I guess? (If his parents are trying to include LW's kids, I imagine BIL is, too, but probably not to the degree of writing them into an inheritance.)

I am willing to cut people a lot of slack about going a little crazy in the wake of major bereavements, like losing both parents (in a short period of time? it seems like the LW was pretty unprepared), and also having a toddler and an infant sounds like a special level of sleep-deprivation hell (and the LW does not mention her husband as a source of major support for either of these, although absence of evidence, etc.), but also: what the fuck this is an incredibly nasty way of thinking about people being kind to your children! The LW is obviously mourning her actual parents and also all of her fantasies about her parents as grandparents and how much better/easier her life would be if they were around (is this fantasy related to reality? can't tell from here), and is turning that grief outward onto her in-laws, and she needs to stop blaming her in-laws for their failure to be her fantasy parents, like, yesterday.

Edited (Clarified an antecedant.) 2023-03-13 20:14 (UTC)

Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. But also we really suck as a nation with childcare. We should not be forcing people to hope they have family ready and willing to help them out. Two parents is not enough, and most times, its actually 1, the mom. I really really wish we had collective institutions that helped.

And also the focus on these people's bank accounts is all sorts of what the fuck. Like, how do we get out of the really awful money worship culture we are in. Cause these folks are offering her love and interest and her well are they leaving their fortune to me is just ... something.

But also we really suck as a nation with childcare. We should not be forcing people to hope they have family ready and willing to help them out.

This is SUCH a good point and it probably is underlying the LW's issues more than it seems. Kids are A LOT. When I visit my folks these days, my brother and his wife like to leave all three of theirs with me (ages 5, 6, and 10 currently) and usually my mom for most of my visit. On the one hand, I'd love to actually be able to sit and talk with either of them; on the other hand, I can completely understand the urge to just be free for a bit. Multiple children are ROUGH to keep up with at the same time if you're the only one in the room. (IDK where LW's husband is, but he is really notable in his absence here.) And daycare is impossibly expensive. We just really, really need a better system. People are drowning out there.

I am fortunate in that all my grandparents lived long enough to be there when I was growing up, and they all lived near us. I'm sure they bragged about their grandchildren, but what I know is that they spent time with us, in groups and individually. I didn't inherit a nickel, or expect to: any money they had to leave to heirs went to their children, not their grandchildren.

Also, I suspect that if the letter writer's parents were still alive, she'd find their actual behavior as grandparents wanting. Of course the actual people can't live up to her memories, or her expectations that if her parents were still alive, they would be healthy and energetic. Has she even noticed that she is saying the volunteer extra grandparents are simultaneously too "traditional" and not fitting some definition of what "real" grandparents would do?

Edited 2023-04-07 02:26 (UTC)

Oh, LW, no one can and will ever be able to replace your parents (trust me, I know), and you also can never know what type of grandparents your parents would have actually been. Also, I know it is hard with littles - very hard, if you don't have a good, local support system in place. Try to breathe and accept the love your BIL's parents are giving you and your wee ones, even if it's not quite what you hoped for. And reach out for local supports - mama's groups, therapy, etc. In the wake of loss we have to rebuild our concept of family - it can't take away the pain of losing your parents, but it can help to mend the hole a tiny bit.

(Sorry, all. Grief really sucks when it hits hard. LW needs to deal with her grief.)

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