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agonyaunt2021-03-19 11:48 am
minoanmiss) wrote in agonyaunt2021-03-19 11:48 am
Entry tags:
Dear Prudence: My Daughter’s Girlfriend Is Going to Prison for Armed Robbery and Murder
With the commentary discussion in the first comment, if I can make it work.
She won’t break up with her.
My younger daughter was quite extraordinary as a child—observant, empathetic, sweet, and kind. Her dad and I tried to raise her as a caring, loving person, and it worked. For a while. During her teen years, she was greatly influenced by close friends who didn’t have good behavior modeled for them at home: swearing, no manners, obnoxious behavior. We are quite liberal, and she normally embraces our values but seemed to turn away on other things. She lost the sunny disposition she once had.
Her senior year she started dating a girl we knew very little about but who seemed to make her very happy, and as she said “made her feel beautiful” (I’m biased, I know, but my daughter is gorgeous). The most I could find out was that her girlfriend had a rough home life, but their teachers praised my daughter for being a good influence on her. Her girlfriend came to school more and did her homework, as urged by my daughter. That made me proud. Then, tragedy. On an evening when she promised to come watch my daughter’s game, she didn’t show. Turns out, she got into a car with a bunch of other friends who were on a mission to steal drugs and money from a home. Armed robbery and murder followed. Within a couple days all of them were arrested. My daughter was devastated but stood by her. I tried to talk to my daughter about them having no future now, as her girlfriend pleaded out and is going to prison. But due to COVID, her sentencing has been delayed, and she’s still at home. In addition to this, I see signs of jealousy, manipulation, and control. How do I help my daughter see this is not a healthy relationship? I’ve never felt so helpless.
-- Worried Sick
Feeling helpless is a very difficult feeling to have to contend with. But the path to something like (relative) serenity begins by acknowledging the people and situations you have no power over. You cannot force your daughter to stop loving her girlfriend, to break up with her, to consider their relationship unhealthy, or to abjure the company of people her own age who may swear, behave obnoxiously, or otherwise act out. The harder you try to exert your will in those areas, the more thwarted you’ll feel and the faster your daughter will pull away. You’ll have limited, circumspect opportunities to share your concerns or ask thoughtful questions, and if you navigate those opportunities with a light hand, you’ll likely get a lot further with your daughter than if you try to push. Offer your daughter support where you can; don’t offer her advice unless she asks you for it; and seek out friends and/or a therapist when you need to vent or cry about your baby girl.
I will also offer caution about dwelling on fond memories of your daughter’s childhood, which can sometimes be a barrier to establishing an honest, emotionally balanced relationship in the present. It seems like you may be longing for a time when you were readily able to keep your daughter safe and close, but for her that would mean longing for a time before she was able to make her own decisions, fall in love, or cultivate her own values. Trying to appeal to your daughter by reminding her what a great kid she used to be will likely make her feel as if you’re questioning where she went wrong or are unwilling to see her as an adult, so I’d save those remembrances for another time. All your feelings here are perfectly understandable, but you can’t process them with your daughter, who is striking out on her own as an adult.
She won’t break up with her.
My younger daughter was quite extraordinary as a child—observant, empathetic, sweet, and kind. Her dad and I tried to raise her as a caring, loving person, and it worked. For a while. During her teen years, she was greatly influenced by close friends who didn’t have good behavior modeled for them at home: swearing, no manners, obnoxious behavior. We are quite liberal, and she normally embraces our values but seemed to turn away on other things. She lost the sunny disposition she once had.
Her senior year she started dating a girl we knew very little about but who seemed to make her very happy, and as she said “made her feel beautiful” (I’m biased, I know, but my daughter is gorgeous). The most I could find out was that her girlfriend had a rough home life, but their teachers praised my daughter for being a good influence on her. Her girlfriend came to school more and did her homework, as urged by my daughter. That made me proud. Then, tragedy. On an evening when she promised to come watch my daughter’s game, she didn’t show. Turns out, she got into a car with a bunch of other friends who were on a mission to steal drugs and money from a home. Armed robbery and murder followed. Within a couple days all of them were arrested. My daughter was devastated but stood by her. I tried to talk to my daughter about them having no future now, as her girlfriend pleaded out and is going to prison. But due to COVID, her sentencing has been delayed, and she’s still at home. In addition to this, I see signs of jealousy, manipulation, and control. How do I help my daughter see this is not a healthy relationship? I’ve never felt so helpless.
-- Worried Sick
Feeling helpless is a very difficult feeling to have to contend with. But the path to something like (relative) serenity begins by acknowledging the people and situations you have no power over. You cannot force your daughter to stop loving her girlfriend, to break up with her, to consider their relationship unhealthy, or to abjure the company of people her own age who may swear, behave obnoxiously, or otherwise act out. The harder you try to exert your will in those areas, the more thwarted you’ll feel and the faster your daughter will pull away. You’ll have limited, circumspect opportunities to share your concerns or ask thoughtful questions, and if you navigate those opportunities with a light hand, you’ll likely get a lot further with your daughter than if you try to push. Offer your daughter support where you can; don’t offer her advice unless she asks you for it; and seek out friends and/or a therapist when you need to vent or cry about your baby girl.
I will also offer caution about dwelling on fond memories of your daughter’s childhood, which can sometimes be a barrier to establishing an honest, emotionally balanced relationship in the present. It seems like you may be longing for a time when you were readily able to keep your daughter safe and close, but for her that would mean longing for a time before she was able to make her own decisions, fall in love, or cultivate her own values. Trying to appeal to your daughter by reminding her what a great kid she used to be will likely make her feel as if you’re questioning where she went wrong or are unwilling to see her as an adult, so I’d save those remembrances for another time. All your feelings here are perfectly understandable, but you can’t process them with your daughter, who is striking out on her own as an adult.
And the Uncensored discussion
Daniel Lavery: I will admit, although I’ve gotten letters a little bit along these lines before, I definitely haven’t had murder as a plot point often
so the murder part definitely gave me pause
Matt Lubchansky: holy moly. yeah i was really trucking along there like “let your daughter live her life lady!” until the murder part. personally
I’m definitely inclined to think “influence” as this nebulous thing corrupting our beautiful daughters is extremely some sort of parental myth? Like “manners” or whatever is a very specious measure of human value to me. Maybe I just swear a lot
Daniel Lavery: yes that really struck me too, and I think that’s part of why the letter-writer wants so badly to focus on a time in her daughter’s life when she didn’t invest much time or energy among her peers and mostly just wanted to hang out with her parents and develop spatial awareness
“she’s good at heart, she just found bad companions and likes them a lot by accident”
Matt Lubchansky: “My daughter used to love spending time with me, not complaining, and working on her fine motor skills”
Daniel Lavery: You obviously are not under any obligation to like your daughter’s friends, or her girlfriend’s friends, especially the ones who have participated in an armed robbery/murder
that is absolutely fine to not like. You have my full permission to disapprove of that! I don’t want that to get lost here
Matt Lubchansky: Certainly! I just think it’s important to recognize there’s no magic combination of words you can use, especially on your own teenager, that will make her think like you. Especially about her friends. That said I think it’s fine to try and have a frank talk about how murder is not a value one was raised with
Daniel Lavery: yeah, I think it’s just a really ineffective strategy
almost no adult (or almost-adult, if your daughter’s still a senior in high school) likes hearing “you were such a great kid, what happened”
Matt Lubchansky: Totally agree, and so is bringing up “nefarious influence” of people she has strong feelings for.
Daniel Lavery: because it’s like….”I didn’t used to be a fully-grown adult with autonomy, so what I’m hearing is that you liked me better when I didn’t run my own life” is the immediate response, when you hear that, especially from a parent
and again, this girlfriend may be an absolute piece of shit
or she may be a troubled kid who was in the wrong place or the wrong time
or something in the middle
Matt Lubchansky: Yeah I feel like I need more clarification on “murder followed” if we’re going to make a judgment there
Daniel Lavery: but the problem isn’t that your daughter used to be great and then she was accidentally seized by Honest John Worthington Foulfellow and those kids who went to Donkey Island in Pinnocchoio
man I cannot spell Pinnochio
Pinocchio?
Matt Lubchansky: waiter, i’ll have one pinnoccino
Daniel Lavery: PLEASURE Island not Donkey Island
no one would have gone there if it was called Donkey Island
Matt Lubchansky: waiter, i’ll have one donkey island
Daniel Lavery: anyhow! the point is that your daughter has been making choices that trouble you, and you want to find ways you can talk to her about that without driving her away or making her feel defensive
and I think you can do that! but you can’t do that by saying either “time to dump your girlfriend because she’s going to prison” or “You were so much better when you were four and didn’t really have friends”
Matt Lubchansky: Yeah I think it’s so important to talk to your kids like they’re adults, especially about adult stuff like this. Everyone remembers being annoyed that they weren’t taken seriously enough by adults when they were teens.
Daniel Lavery: the signs of jealousy/manipulation/control might be more serious, but unfortunately the LW doesn’t go into any detail there
so I can’t really make a ruling on how concerned she should be
I’ll just say that while it’s painful to feel helpless, you are only going to have less and less input on your daughter’s decisions, especially as they relate to her friends and partners, with each passing year
Matt Lubchansky: Yeah the evidence for “my daughter is being corrupted” is extremely light here, which tips me off to maybe it being perhaps overblown. that said “murder followed,” so
Daniel Lavery: and that’s how it should be! that’s what growing up is
so you need to prepare yourself to actually *have less power* over her choices and to think of that as something you might find challenging but that is actually a good and necessary part of seeing your kid grow up into adulthood
I mean I do feel bad because I really, really understand why you would be concerned as a parent to hear “my girlfriend just got convicted for her part in a murder”
Matt Lubchansky: Yes
Daniel Lavery: and I’m coming down kind of hard on the whole “let your daughter make her own mistakes” line, which is important but also — I get why you’re upset, OP, I really do
but man especially if she loves her girlfriend, and she’s going to go to prison soon, and she’s already feeling embattled and defensive, you really need to tread carefully here
or else you’re just going to make her feel like a Capulet defending a wounded Montague
Matt Lubchansky: I know it makes this less interesting, but i totally agree! I just know that if at any point, including now, if my mother said to me “you didn’t used to be like this” I’m just hanging up the phone
Daniel Lavery: God yes I heard that a fair amount in my 20s and it just felt so frustrating and impossible to respond to
“I’m….sorry I grew up?”
it’s a perfectly understandable feeling to have *and share with another parent during a venting session*
it’s not a good thing to say to your adult kid
Matt Lubchansky: not to get all AS A QUEER over here because i also don’t know if the LW is! but def with queer youth you’ve got your hackles up all the time for this stuff
Daniel Lavery: yeah I didn’t want to go too far down that road here because again, murder, but it did feel like the LW was trying not to say something like “I was a little freaked out when she got a girlfriend…”
because sometimes people who call themselves “quite liberal” get very antsy when they realize they’re a little freaked out by the reality of having a gay kid
Matt Lubchansky: trying to keep “murder followed” in the forefront of the old noggin as well
but yes
Daniel Lavery: it’s a very real concern to have!!! the murder!!
Matt Lubchansky: murder is certainly bad. that’s my position anyway
Daniel Lavery: she missed your daughter’s game to be part of a murder! You do not have to like or think highly of her in order to play your role as a parent well
i just mean that your daughter is going to have to make her own calls here and so your goal is to not shut down helpful conversations that might be possible in the future
so asking her like, how she’s looking out for herself right now, reminding her to get some rest, encouraging her to talk to her other friends or suggesting therapy — all good options
You can also SAY what you think. You don’t have to hold that back. I just think you should say it once and then let it be that
Matt Lubchansky: right! there’s also the possibility of just asking her how she feels! i’d be mad at my girlfriend if she missed my game, to commit murder
Daniel Lavery: “I know you care about her, and I realize it’s your decision to make; I hope she can develop a different kind of life in the future and want her to be safe and as well as possible, but I don’t think she treats you well and I worry about her jealousy. I think you deserve better” is 100% fine
but if your daughter’s not ready to consider that, repeating yourself is not going to get anywhere with her
and do your best whenever possible to separate things you find distasteful (like swearing or not being on top of your homework) from harmful things (armed robbery, murder, trying to control your romantic partner)
Matt Lubchansky: right like this has very little to do with manners! don’t bring that up, it’ll feel like it’s reaching, because it is
Daniel Lavery: and also like you can’t tell the difference between things that matter and things that have more to do with looking a certain way
Matt Lubchansky: YES
Daniel Lavery: so she’ll be less likely to value your judgment on important things if she thinks of you as like, “Oh, Mom, thinks everyone who curses or wears ripped jeans is a violent criminal, her opinions aren’t valuable on the subject because she paints everyone with the same broad brush”
again, doesn’t mean you have to like swearing! You are free to dislike it. Just be careful to keep a scale of “worth a fight” or “worth letting go” in the back of your head
Matt Lubchansky: yeah i feel like that scale also should tip more and more to “worth letting go” as someone gets older. again, the abusive part and the murder part are, different.
Daniel Lavery: Talk to your daughter so that when/if she is ever ready to break up with her girlfriend, she’ll think of you as someone who’s going to offer her nonjudgmental support afterwards
make it as easy as possible for her to come to you about difficult decisions
you can be clear about where you stand and then you can also stop trying to repeat yourself or try to get your way indirectly and really let your daughter have space to make her own choices
Matt Lubchansky: YES this is exactly it. Making it a non-judgmental space is the only way you’re going to be able to have a real conversation
Daniel Lavery: and good luck! I hope your daughter is getting good support from a lot of different fronts these days
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You cannot rescue her, LW. You can, however, be there to catch her if she stumbles or asks for help, and to model the life she can have if she stays the course. She's probably going to talk more to her siblings about all this since you've already tried to talk her out of things. Suck it up, you already screwed up, all you can do is try to remediate your own response and hang out.
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This is a wonderful chance for you to support daughter & gf through a really, really tough time, and whenever you can't deal, you get to go out of daughter's earshot and cheerfully remind yourself any serious danger from gf has a time limit. Once gf is physically separated, their relationship will change (still maybe not the way you want it to! But you can build trust now to help her then too.)
(LW is probably not the right person to talk to about the systemic injustices that turn 'dumb teens fail at burglary' into 'murder charges'. But maybe this is a chance for her to listen to her daughter a little? Maybe?)
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I’m not saying that the girlfriend is necessarily a great person – she may be problematic in various ways – but she might be someone whose life got out of control and who, herself, went through a traumatic experience and who is now facing severe consequences. And I wouldn’t have thought so deeply about how the situation could be very different from presented if it weren’t for the LW’s general tone and the very careful framing she used in her letter to make sure people would be on her side.
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(Also, depending on her financial situation and race, getting pressured to plead to SOMETHING when you're innocent, have inadequate representation, or can't face indefinite pretrial detention because you can't afford cash bail, is a major problem with our justice system.)
Is it possible that she was in on the plan? Absolutely -- but the word choice, along with the infantilization of the daughter and the "she was such a perfect child" and the girlfriend having a "rough home life" and friends being a "bad influence" really rubs me wrong, as does the conflation of swearing and bad manners with an actual crime.
I feel like there's some missing information and a very slanted presentation going on here -- even if the mother does have major LEGITIMATE concerns about her daughter's girlfriend (I would also be upset if my kid's partner was involved in a crime!), she's undermining them by inserting the prissiness about swearing and other incredibly minor teenage issues.
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It does make a difference whether she was a juvenile or an adult--not in the charges, but in how soon she gets out. Does LW want someone who's been in jail for murder getting out at age 18 or 21 and deciding her girlfriend betrayed her by dumping her?
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It's been a few years now, and I'm still around and the girlfriend is a thing of the past, so.
Honestly, if either of my kids had a romantic partner who had just plead guilty in a criminal case involving physical violence, I would be having some serious discussion with the kid about whether this was really a kind of trouble they want in their life. Sometimes we have to turn away from someone we care about to protect our own health and safety.
But if the girlfriend is going to prison here in the next while...I'd also just wait it out, as much as possible (though I would be unlikely to welcome the girlfriend in my home). This is a problem that is likely to resolve itself in the next couple of years.
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This. With a side of, "You did not sign up for this when you started dating your GF. So now you get to reassess/you are allowed to change your mind/you do not have to 'stand by your wo/man' to be a good person."
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