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Carolyn Hax: "Garbage" friend seeks to reconnect
Adapted from an online discussion.
Dear Carolyn: About 20 years ago, I broke off a really intense friendship. She did a typical 24-year-old thing, but it was a dealbreaker nonetheless. I was hurt and upset. She apologized. I told her how I felt and that I wanted nothing more to do with her ever again. Friend moved away soon after.
I got a message from her a couple of days ago. She said she missed our friendship and felt bad that we “fell out of touch.” It’s clear she has no memory of why we aren’t friends anymore.
I have zero interest in being friends with her now. It’s bad enough Friend was a garbage person back then. But it’s even worse — and proving my point — that she has no recollection of her terrible actions and thinks everything has always been hunky-dory with us. I’d like to tell her as much, but I’m not sure what the point is?
— Are You [bleeping] Kidding Me?
Are You [bleeping] Kidding Me?: You have no obligation to respond, and there doesn’t seem to be much benefit to responding just to restate the point you tried to make two decades ago. So you’re good there, if you want to be.
But given your high levels of passion and certainty, I wonder: Have you put your own view of what happened under any kind of microscope? You were young then, too. Maybe you legitimately misread something: her actions, her intent, her.
Maybe what she did was totally obvious and “garbage” and there’s nothing to examine. But, having had a few eye-opening encounters with my own two-decade-old certainties, and knowing how much better our memories are at storytelling than at data, I am a big fan of going through the old files sometimes in search of humbling insight. For all you know, she’s in touch because she did the same.
Re: Former Friend: She’s a garbage person? There’s no possibility she’s had a bunch of growth in 20 years? That she does remember what happened, but doesn’t want to open with that? That she’s not out of line at all and you can easily say, “We had some great times and I miss some of those days, but I don’t think it’s possible to recapture them. Hope you’re doing well,” without feeling all this agita that she [gasp] dared to try to speak to you again?
— Anonymous
Anonymous: Good stuff here, thank you.
Dear Carolyn: It was an affair. There are two kinds of people: those who can see it all in the bigger picture, and those who can only see this one specific thing in black and white. It’s one of those things where the two kinds of people can never really understand the other. Move along. #TeamNeverForgiveNeverForget.
— Kidding Me again ETA This is not the original LW.
Kidding Me again: Right, two kinds: people who understand life is fluid and complex, and those who don’t. If your way serves you well, then keep it, but don’t presume to stuff anyone else in a box.
Other readers’ thoughts:
· Someone once told me to try to remember everyone at their best, not their worst. Do YOU want to be remembered for your worst behavior or best behavior? Sometimes people commit heinous, unforgivable acts, sure. And sometimes they are just immature 24-year-olds learning like the rest of us.
· I think #TeamNeverForgiveNeverForget is the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time. My father has lived his ever-diminishing life by this motto; I have watched it wind around his heart like a constrictor. Join #TeamLetItGo; the liberation will be, well, liberating!
Dear Carolyn: About 20 years ago, I broke off a really intense friendship. She did a typical 24-year-old thing, but it was a dealbreaker nonetheless. I was hurt and upset. She apologized. I told her how I felt and that I wanted nothing more to do with her ever again. Friend moved away soon after.
I got a message from her a couple of days ago. She said she missed our friendship and felt bad that we “fell out of touch.” It’s clear she has no memory of why we aren’t friends anymore.
I have zero interest in being friends with her now. It’s bad enough Friend was a garbage person back then. But it’s even worse — and proving my point — that she has no recollection of her terrible actions and thinks everything has always been hunky-dory with us. I’d like to tell her as much, but I’m not sure what the point is?
— Are You [bleeping] Kidding Me?
Are You [bleeping] Kidding Me?: You have no obligation to respond, and there doesn’t seem to be much benefit to responding just to restate the point you tried to make two decades ago. So you’re good there, if you want to be.
But given your high levels of passion and certainty, I wonder: Have you put your own view of what happened under any kind of microscope? You were young then, too. Maybe you legitimately misread something: her actions, her intent, her.
Maybe what she did was totally obvious and “garbage” and there’s nothing to examine. But, having had a few eye-opening encounters with my own two-decade-old certainties, and knowing how much better our memories are at storytelling than at data, I am a big fan of going through the old files sometimes in search of humbling insight. For all you know, she’s in touch because she did the same.
Re: Former Friend: She’s a garbage person? There’s no possibility she’s had a bunch of growth in 20 years? That she does remember what happened, but doesn’t want to open with that? That she’s not out of line at all and you can easily say, “We had some great times and I miss some of those days, but I don’t think it’s possible to recapture them. Hope you’re doing well,” without feeling all this agita that she [gasp] dared to try to speak to you again?
— Anonymous
Anonymous: Good stuff here, thank you.
Dear Carolyn: It was an affair. There are two kinds of people: those who can see it all in the bigger picture, and those who can only see this one specific thing in black and white. It’s one of those things where the two kinds of people can never really understand the other. Move along. #TeamNeverForgiveNeverForget.
— Kidding Me again ETA This is not the original LW.
Kidding Me again: Right, two kinds: people who understand life is fluid and complex, and those who don’t. If your way serves you well, then keep it, but don’t presume to stuff anyone else in a box.
Other readers’ thoughts:
· Someone once told me to try to remember everyone at their best, not their worst. Do YOU want to be remembered for your worst behavior or best behavior? Sometimes people commit heinous, unforgivable acts, sure. And sometimes they are just immature 24-year-olds learning like the rest of us.
· I think #TeamNeverForgiveNeverForget is the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time. My father has lived his ever-diminishing life by this motto; I have watched it wind around his heart like a constrictor. Join #TeamLetItGo; the liberation will be, well, liberating!
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Ah, thank you, that changes things.
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90s/00s feminism we still blamed "the other woman" in affairs (just listen to the opening lyrics of "Before He Cheats" - Carrie is dripping with disdain for the other woman who may not have even known she was the other woman). People who cheat make their own choices. Unless the individual they cheated with was aware of it, they are not to blame for someone else's decisions.
why not both?
The thing is, LW is under no obligation to respond, and should just delete the message and move on, and is also absolutist in assuming no growth has happened in 20 years. I mean, I get it! There are people who wronged me when I was 24 in ways that were shitty but non-felonious, and if they reached out to me I would absolutely not respond or want to see them. But I would also recognize that if someone judged me by my worst days when I was 24, I wouldn't have many friends.
LW should delete the message, and ALSO LW might benefit from admitting that "did a garbage thing at 24" does not mean "is a garbage 44 year old."
Re: why not both?
Re: why not both?
Re: why not both?
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I'm pretty sure LW wants Carolyn to tell them it's okay to attack the person for contacting them on facebook: "I’d like to tell her as much, but I’m not sure what the point is?"
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I both want to know and totally don't want to know what Former Friend did, because... the assumption that everything is forgivable annoys me. But then I do tend towards the unforgiving myself, because sometimes the only thing we have is our certainty that we didn't deserve what was done to us. Sometimes people deserve to be judged by their "worst" days, especially those who wouldn't consider them their worst. If my first boyfriend (the one who physically and sexually assaulted me) dropped me a line I wouldn't respond. I have no idea what kind of man he grew into -- I can't say he's an abuser now, because I don't know. But I do know what he did was sufficient that I don't care to find out who he is today. I just never want to deal with him ever again.
I don't know if there's a way to say "consider if it wasn't so bad" without including an assumption that it wasn't so bad. Sometimes it was that bad.
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Maybe LW is too angry. But maybe she's not. Suppose she was in the situation of the sister from the recent "my dog tried to kill my nephew, tee hee" letter -- the whole world would tell her to forgive the dog-owning ex friend but every time she looked at her baby's scarred face she would feel anger shimmer in her belly and remember that she was not wrong.
tl:dr -- I think anger isn't necessarily negative and can be downright positive sometimes.
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I had a moment of right words at the right time for an abusive ex. No I did not want to talk to him but this was before caller id. We had broken up when I was 18, and it was 10 years later. He called in October or Nov of 2001. He said my name and I instantly knew who it was. I asked him why he was calling then stopped him. "after 9/11 you have either started looking over your life or you've joined a 12 step program and need to make amends. You can consider this finished. We have nothing to say to each other" He was shocked. He had been looking at his life, joined a 12 step program, and was calling to make amends. (His birthday was/is 9/11 so I think it was easy to follow the dots. not to mention he was my abuser. I knew how he thought.) He thanked me for being so cut and dry about it. Apologized for the abuse and got off the phone. It was the easiest thing I ever did. Altho I don't know how I had the power to do it. But when you need it it does happen.
LW doesn't need to acknowledge this person but they perhaps need to think about their reaction to it and why it hurts/angers/saddens so much.
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You are so, so right. It really bothers me that this possibility isn't acknowledged in the column.
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And if it's not that justified, then LW needs to... I don't know, but it also doesn't include sending this person a mean response.
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This exact thing happened to me and the former friend was reaching out as part of a 'making amends' process. We exchanged a few emails and then it dwindled again. We had nothing in common any more, but I had put it behind me and really didn't think about it too much in the present day. There was no point in me responding to her overture. I found out what had become of her and satisfied my curiosity but that was about it.
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I can see how it could go both ways! Maybe it was an ordinary typical sort of thing and LW knows that logically but she's still so hurt about it that the anger always overrides that. Or maybe Friend did a truly garbage thing but someone (else) tried to convince LW that it was just normal kid stuff, so she's underplaying it in her own mind even as she's still justifiably angry. I can't tell and I don't think LW can either.
LW can't seem to figure out how they feel about it enough to decide which it is, and they need to get to that point before they even think about saying anything whatsoever to this person.
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