Ask a Manager: Folluwup to "my employees got into a religious argument and now things are in chaos"

[minoanmiss]

(posted here)

I wanted to give you all an update on my workplace situation last year where two of my employees who are Muslim made religious harassment comments toward another report of mine who is a Wiccan. The situation became quite the roller coaster. First off, some backstory. Our area has a sizeable Muslim population and my company in particular has a history of discrimination and harassment lawsuits in regard to Muslims after 9/11 in 2001. This explains my own manager pushing me to fire Harry the Wiccan and disregarding the actions of Crabbe and Goyle the Muslim employees (I’m changing from Fred and George to Malfoy’s little minions, I don’t know why I didn’t think to do that in the first letter).

I also want to make apparent that Harry is by far my favorite employee as he has always been reliable, efficient, friendly with other staff, and a great asset to our team. Hence why I felt very protective of him through this whole ordeal. Everyone else including the 2 also make meaningful contributions as well that I do appreciate.

I did take your advice in my discussions with these three about how religious harassment comments will not be tolerated. I do want to note that my original letter, I unknowingly misconstrued Harry’s initial response. The witnesses to this argument had since verified that Harry did not so much make similar egregious remarks about Islam as much as he explained that Islam has been grossly misunderstood so they should not be insulting or belittling his own spiritual beliefs. The witnesses don’t interpret his response at all as egregious as what C and G said. So, to him I did soften the message to be very mindful of how he responds to any kind of harassment and to bring any issues to me in the future. To Crabbe and Goyle, I warned them that their actions were completely inexcusable and will not be tolerated at all going forward, to stop the whispered comments they are making about other staff especially me and Harry and warned that they will be terminated if they cross the line again. Both verbalized understanding to me at the time.

A day later, my boss Snape called me in to repeat that Harry needs to be fired immediately for his harassment. I again explained that Crabbe and Goyle were the ones harassing, not Harry, and should be disciplined but I was not willing to fire them just yet. I was willing to give them a final warning and go from there. He then went on how Harry doesn’t have a ‘real’ religion and that Crabbe and Goyle just came to him about they have already begun a lawsuit against Harry and the company. He then explained that with our company’s history of Islamic discrimination lawsuits that he is willing to side with the Two, because AGAIN, its 2 vs 1! I immediately ended this conversation and went straight for HR.

Our HR manager Minerva had heard of the situation but believed that I had already handled it and supported my decisions in how I addressed each employee. She was confused and furious when I told her what Snape had pushed me to do and assured me, she will handle this. The next day I was called in with Minerva and Albus the big boss to explain to them all that had happened. Afterwards they both assured me that Snape was way out of line, and they would address both him and the 2 about any lawsuit. In the meantime, C&G became increasingly distant with the rest of the team and would barely speak with Harry regarding work matters as he had already been doing after their first offense against him. I kept an eye on this to ensure that they did not engage in anything overtly hostile with nothing noted.

Later on in the week, Snape approached me and apologized for his earlier suggestion and incredibly misguided logic of firing Harry and sparing the other 2. Maybe not the best response on my part but I stated I was reluctant to accept his apology yet as he displayed some rather troubling views about how he regards different belief systems especially as he previously stated that Harry did not have a real legitimate faith and was willing to see him terminated for an incident he didn’t even start. He said nothing of this but said he was wrong. Next week, he and the 2 were fired. From what people were saying, Snape continued to spout off to Albus and Minerva that Wicca and other ‘weirdo’ faiths were not real, and that Harry was just some ‘wizard wannabe’. Also apparently, the lawsuit in question from Crabbe and Goyle was fabricated on their part. They only made an empty threat in order scare the company into firing Harry because they realized what they started could get them fired and thought with our history of discrimination lawsuits against Muslims, they would be able to get away with it.

This whole situation has made my head spin as I did not anticipate such a trying follow up to what should have been just my initial conversations with each of the original 3. Though I am glad things did somewhat work out for my team and for Harry who continues to excel in his role. After this whole ordeal, I touched base with him to reassure him that I do not find him at fault for how this escalated and apologized that it had and with such vitriol directed at him. He was grateful for me for being in his corner through this whole situation and glad to remain in his role which he loves despite this unpleasant ordeal. Albus and Minerva have also spoken with him with their own reassurances and authorized a very generous raise on his behalf. I have started to advocate for him to be considered for higher positions within the company with something already on the horizon for him soon. The rest of my team have also expressed they backing of Harry and glad Crabbe and Goyle did not take this any further and cause damage to our team.

Thank you, Alison, for your advice. As lengthy as this is, I still only touched upon the main points so if anyone has any other questions or follow-ups, I will be glad to answer them in the comment section.

Comments

[ashbet]

Ugh, poor “Harry” — glad the bullies (and LW’s boss-bully!) are out of the company, and hopefully this will recede in their rear-view soon.

As an aside, I really LOATHE people who insist that Wicca and Paganism aren’t “real” religions or spiritual paths >:(

[lethe1]

Yes. And how do those people feel about atheists and agnostics? Do they also think they are lesser beings than people subscribing to the more common religions?

[conuly]

Do you even have to ask?

[conuly]

Actually, that's unfair. Atheists can be just as ridiculous on this subject as theists, arbitrarily deciding that while all religions are "lies", some of them are more obviously "stupid" than others.

I'd like to say that atheists are more rational people than theists, but I've known too many atheists to believe that.

Which really sucks, as I am an atheist, and I want to be able to say it!

[lilysea]

Yes, I'm an atheist, but I have seen male atheists online weaponise their atheism into racism against people of colour who are Buddhist/Hindu/Muslim, which is appalling.

I don't believe in a god, and I think government should be secular, but if someone's religious beliefs/practices aren't causing any actual harm[1], they're no one else's business.

[1] Harm like
causing people to refuse blood transfusions for themselves/their children;
causing people to refuse vaccines for themselves/their children;
causing people to persecute LGBT people etc

[conuly]

Here in NYC, my first thought of "harm perpetuated by religion" is ultra-Orthodox yeshivas* that don't provide a secular education, especially to boys.

I suppose if I lived in a more rural area I'd think about the Amish instead, who also don't really provide an adequate education to their children.

Every time somebody waxes rhapsodic about how these communities must be doing something right because so few of them leave, I think "Well, yeah, because they can't".

* Should go without saying, but I know it can't: most Jews, including Orthodox Jews, value education as much as everybody else does. It's an investment that nobody can make you abandon at the border. The ultra-Orthodox no more represent your average Jew than the Amish or Quiverfull fundy types represent your average Christian.

[lilysea]

Yes, a basic and accurate education in reading, writing, mathematics, science, and social studies should be mandatory regardless of religion.

(I gather the rules around home schooling in the US are in general much more lax than in Australia - a friend of mine in Australia homeschools because her children are neurodiverse and also because her husband was harmed at school, and she has to show her lesson plans/curriculum/educational goals for her 4 children to a government official once a year for approval - and if she doesn't get approval, her kids have to go to a school.)

No one should reach 16/17/18 illiterate or not understanding germ theory.

[conuly]

In the US, homeschooling is regulated by the states, and it really runs the gamut. In some states you don't have to do literally anything - nobody has to be informed that you're homeschooling, you don't need to follow any sort of curriculum, there's no testing mandate, nothing.

In others, regulations are a bit stricter, though enforcement rarely is as strict as you might think from reading it. For example, we homeschooled just for middle school, and in NYS (a "strict" state) the rules are that you have to submit your Letter of Intent at the start of the year and four quarterly reports, and that from grades 5 - 8 your kids have to take a standardized test (you can choose which test you take, and proctor it yourself) every other year. In high school they have to take a standardized test yearly.

We literally wrote "I intend to educate my kids in all required subjects, including but not limited to (list of subjects)" at the start of the year, and "our children have completed the required coursework in all required subjects for this quarter/year" for each quarterly report.

Nobody's checking up to see that you actually do it, and nobody cares if your kids actually do well on the standardized test. So it's really more busywork than anything, and a nonzero number of NY homeschoolers just don't do it and are in noncompliance and... nothing happens to them.

Though that may be changing. The state is finally trying to push through some new laws designed to crack down on the worst of the non-teaching yeshivas, but of course they can't say it's targeting those schools specifically because religion, so they worded it to catch any nonpublic schooling that doesn't result in a bare minimum education. Which amounts to mostly exactly those schools they want to catch, but... well, they're not the only nonpublic schools that don't teach, they're just the biggest bloc, so probably some other private schools will be caught up as well (as they should be!) and it's possible some homeschoolers who really don't educate at all will be too. I'm not exactly sobbing over that possibility. If you're genuinely not teaching your kids, you really need to be.

[lokifan]

We have rules about it here in the UK but they're very ill-enforced. In north London, there are a ton of Orthodox Jewish kids who aren't registered with the council, there are no records of or checks on their education, and they're not being properly educated.

(This is obviously a minority among a minority - there are also a ton of very well-educated Orthodox Jewish kids in north London, one of my best friends used to teach lots of them herself because she worked in a girls' school. But it's a known problem and Camden council just does nothing about it.)

[redbird]

I knew someone (through SF fandom) who had gone to a Lubavitcher yeshiva, and as far as I could tell, he had been taught a lot about Judaism and specifically Jewish history, and was fluent in Hebrew, and otherwise had exactly as much secular education as the state of New York required.

I realized this because we'd be talking about any number of subjects, and I'd mention something about history or geography or science or various other subjects, and his reaction was "how do you know that?" Not that he thought I was making it up, he just had no concept of a broad liberal education, and that someone might be familiar with and interested in that many different subjects other than the ones he and his classmates had studied.

And that's a yeshiva that did it right: Mordecai had read and/or watched enough science fiction to look for other people who shared that interest, rather than being limited to a much narrower reading list.

[conuly]

and otherwise had exactly as much secular education as the state of New York required.

As I understand it, that is still substantially more than a lot of those kids are actually getting. (Source: news articles about people who have been through that schooling and want to fix it for the next generation)

[redbird]

Alas, yes.

[jadelennox]

argh, given what hostile environments workplaces already are in the US for anyone from a minority religion, fuck Crabbe and Goyle for this and for falsely playing the lawsuit card. They've made every Christian and Christian-background person in that workplace suspicious now of every Muslim, Jew, or Hindu in a religious context.

(Comparison of different badnesses, not oppression olympics: Wiccans in some sense have it worse in the workplace, because too many people think Wiccans are either Satan-worshippers or goofy poseurs with a fake religion. But people from the Orientalized non Christian religions have it worse in other senses, because at least neo-paganisms are pereceived to be comfortingly white in their origins, not Foreign and Eastern with Funny Alphabets, and also neo-paganisms usually have a lot fewer practices that will stand out as inconvenient in an office (eg. kashrut/halal rules, specific work-forbidding holy days, etc). Basically what Crabbe and Goyle have done has poisoned the well among many of Harry's supporters for all the non-Christian religions, while probably also poisoning the well for neo-pagans for a lot of other people in the workplace. What a clusterfuck.)

[lilysea]

Yes, I was actually doubting the veracity of this letter, because Crabbe and Goyle's actions are so appallingly damaging to any other Muslim people who join the workplace later -

I was wondering if the letter was a troll, or an unreliable narrator.