agonyaunt | Care & Feeding: My Teenage Daughter Is Being Accused of Bullying

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Care & Feeding: My Teenage Daughter Is Being Accused of Bullying—I Think Her Teammate Is Just Weak

I feel like the real world will eat this girl alive.

I’m a dad to a 14-year-old girl who plays on a high-level club basketball team, and yesterday we were pulled aside by her coach who accused her of bullying another girl on the team.

At first, I was shocked because that’s not like my daughter to behave that way, but when I dug deeper, I learned she was just trying to motivate one of the lazier girls on the team. My daughter is fiery and competitive, but she’s not a bully. I played college basketball, and I dealt with a lot of teammates who would get in my face if I wasn’t performing well, and I didn’t complain about being bullied. Apparently, my daughter has reduced this girl to tears on multiple occasions, but my kid just wants to win. I feel like her teammate needs to toughen up a bit or else the real world will eat her alive. My daughter is a great kid who gets along well with others, but she’s also very competitive. I don’t want her to change because I think she will become a great CEO one day. Am I wrong for thinking my daughter isn’t the problem?

—Tough, Not a Bully

Throughout my upbringing as a basketball player, I dealt with my share of former teammates who behaved like your daughter. I despised them then, and I have less than fond feelings about them today due to what they put me through. On some days, it was yelling in my face, on other days it was enduring incessant ridiculing on road trips, and on many days, they would go to my teammates and tell them not to pass me the ball under any circumstances—and that’s just the “light” stuff I experienced. I spent many private moments in tears, I dealt with depression, and even considered quitting the game I loved because of it.

I persevered to the point where I also played college basketball and was the captain of my team as a senior, but the road to get there was a horrible one due to some of the people I encountered along the way. One thing I promised myself is I would never lead my team in a way that would make other players feel unworthy or unsafe, and I kept that commitment throughout that season, in my current role as a business owner, and as a parent to two young female basketball players.

The reason I’m telling you this story is I’m feeling a sense of post-traumatic stress disorder when I hear about how your daughter is behaving towards her teammate, because I’ve been there. Trust me, if this kid is getting her coach involved, it probably means it’s an issue that needs to be addressed. To answer your question, it is wrong to think your daughter isn’t the problem here, because she clearly is. You may be the problem as well if you think it’s OK to judge a child by calling her “lazy.”

This isn’t 30 years ago. It’s not acceptable anymore to yell at others like Neanderthals to get our point across. Nowadays we understand that motivation doesn’t need to be toxic and harmful. Toughness isn’t about being a jerk—it’s about being supportive during tough times and helping others weather the storm of adversity. It’s a shame that more people aren’t aware of that.

You said your daughter wants to be a CEO one day, right? You should use this as an opportunity to teach your daughter that there are more effective ways to be a good leader than what she’s doing now. A perfect example of that is Sean McVay, head coach of the defending Super Bowl champion Los Angeles Rams. He is living proof that you can be highly successful without disparaging others.

Please wake up and get your daughter to realize she’s heading down a toxic path before it’s too late. Nice people really don’t finish last.

—Doyin

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My only problem with this advice is that, while it's really hard to find fossilized remnants of behavior between the beads and bones, what evidence we have suggests Neandertals were generally pretty good to each other. ;)

I am so tired of people like LW and their nightmare child. The world is harsh and difficult. Why make it more so rather than less?

Yeah, I'm growing less and less fond of the "Neanderthal" put down with what we learn about our shared past.

Agreed, this answer was really unfair to Neandertals!

The title really tells you everything you need to know about the situation lol yikes

Oh yeah.

Asshole father raising an asshole kid. I do feel some sympathy for his daughter, though, because it's even odds that she's "motivated" in this way at home.

Minor quibble with the response, but:

You said your daughter wants to be a CEO one day, right?

No, he said:

I think she will become a great CEO one day

I think the distinction is subtle and hugely important.

Yes.

Apparently, my daughter has reduced this girl to tears on multiple occasions, but my kid just wants to win.

YIKES.

SO MUCH YIKES

LW is obviously awful and the source of his daughter's shittiness, but the advice is lacking in any... actual advice. Links to resources on bullying in sports, maybe? Constructive suggestions? Anything?

My actual constructive advice, other than stick your entire head in a bucket, is that part of being on a team is accepting the coach and/or captain's idea of how the team should behave toward each other and what the general atmosphere of the team should be. And that it's the coach's job to help her teammates get better at the game, not hers. At this level, if you disagree wildly with the coach about basic things, you should look for another team or league with a coach you agree with more. But growing up she will have to learn how to deal with situations where that isn't an option, in sports and out. So that even if you personally don't think it's bullying to put heavy pressure on teammates, learning how to follow a coach's directives even when you don't agree 100% is just as important a part of winning games as individuals scoring points. I think C&F was leaning toward that when they mentioned celebrity coaches who actively avoid those methods, but didn't quite get there.

Also, stick your entire head in a bucket, and maybe if you encourage her to actually learn from her teachers and coaches she will find someone who can teach her how to be a good person, because you clearly aren't up to the job.

I think you have touched on a reason I am sad and disgruntled about my friend's kid. I love my friend. I love their kid. I HATE that their kid is a jerk to others. Like really really a jerk. Said kid is like.. really really smart. And really talented in a lot of ways. But also really really CANNOT DEAL with people who are not as smart as them. And in many cases that is the teachers and coaches in their life. Yes said kid is gifted and yes it must be frustrating to be like 5 steps ahead of everyone including the teacher. But the way they act and talk about them is so grating. In the real world this kid is going to be so much smarter than others it is going to be painful. And the fact that they are not trying to figure out ways to deal with it now aren't great. bc this kid really really HATES people who are not as smart as they are.. and the truth might be in a lot of places they will be the smartest person in any given situation and they will have to be not a jerk to everyone around them. Even an afternoon with them is hard bc they spend the whole time talking about how DUMB people are. and well.... I work with those people all the time and while I am not as smart as kid. I also don't try to be a jerk to my coworkers. And I don't see an ounce of compassion or empathy in that kid right now. And they are close to going to college.

I have a college acquaintance that you could be describing to a T, and they have only within the last few years (we graduated in the 90s) started to figure this kind of thing out, and they are still not very good at it. They are very very book smart, but incredibly socially not smart. I try to be patient with them, but sometimes it's a bit much.

This is one of the reasons I love The Chosen (Chaim Potok).
There are other elements to the plot, but a big one is "father tries to figure out how to teach his frighteningly smart kid how to live with empathy and compassion"

My parents worked very hard to drum it into me that just because I'm smart doesn't mean I'm better than other people, and were successful, possibly too successful. But it certainly has smoothed out my social functioning, and as I matured I realized that many of the people whose mental skills weren't as strong as mine had other skills they were much better at than me.

(I am wondering how much this ties into generally being socialized female, though.)

Everytime I leave their house I spend like an hour in my head talking to myself about how some people might not be smart in say.. math or books but really smart in like say sports or painting or memorizing players stats (my cousin has like 5 decades of sports stats in his skull. he is now a sports reporter for a small paper and he uses those stats all the time) or say political negotiations or culturally smart or or or..... and I get mad all over again how this really gifted kid acts like the world is beneath their shoe and I, as an adult in their life really should address this. But HOW?

My kid's school is based around the theory of Multiple Intelligences, which is very much in line with your thoughts - there are different kinds of being smart, and different ways of being smart, and one of the benefits of her school emphasizing and teaching the different intelligences is that there are places for every kid to shine, and places for every kid to struggle, and no subject is more "real" or more important than any other. Maybe your friend's kid needs some exposure to a subject or subjects that are hard for them - a team sport, or a creative endeavor, or a class in social-emotional learning - to make them aware of the fact that there are things in the world they are going to have a hard time with, and that's okay. (Also, from the perspective of a former "gifted kid" who never had to put much effort into doing well in school, and who therefore never learned how to practice something to improve at it, and quickly moved into a space where I didn't do things I wasn't immediately good at because everyone expected me to be good at everything all the time and didn't give me space to be bad at anything... the earlier this kid finds something hard that they have to actually work at to improve, the more helpful it will be for the rest of their life.)

This resonates. And I'd suggest, there's a piece around validating trying and failing, or trying and improving, and the act of putting effort in itself, that's important.

Yeah, this is a tough problem. One thought is that if the kid goes to a really good college, they'll be exposed to other really smart people... but it might not help by then. Maybe just by continuing to visit with friends/kid and saying stuff like you've said above, you'll be a positive influence? (Obviously it needs to be in context). Or (coming back to the original topic, sort of) point out that people are more easily persuaded/motivated to do stuff and listen to you when you treat them well, rather than like pond scum.

Do you know an adult who's as smart as or smarter than they are, who doesn't have a superiority complex, that they might be able to respect and listen to?

no? not really. When I hang out with the kid I find that it is usually one on one or with their family. I know the kind of people they respect but they tend to be actual celebrities and not physically in their life. But this is a good question.

Partly I hope that is is a early/younger teen phase. The problem being they have skipped several grades and are graduating next year at 15. I know that lots of teenagers think they are the center of the universe but grow out of it. I am hoping that this is that.

My wife was one of those big fish in a little pond folks. But she always knew she was in a little pond. Kid isn't in a little pond but definitely thinks and acts like they are the only fish there. bc other kids aren't even fish to them just single celled organisms.

I probably have to step up my time with them and see if I can start helping with some empathy. fingers crossed.

I know that lots of teenagers think they are the center of the universe but grow out of it. I am hoping that this is that.

Unfortunately, this is a specifically "gifted" flavor of this problem, and some people never outgrow it. (Ever read the horrific fanfic Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? The version of Harry in this fanfic thinks everyone but him is an NPC. The author is a full grown adult, and Harry is not especially meant as an unreliable narrator. The author's social group is full of people who think this way.)

A lot of people develop this type of thinking in part as a defense mechanism - they're excluded and bullied for being weird, and they decide that it doesn't matter because the people who do it are too stupid for their opinions to count anyway. And/or they develop this attitude because their parents had this attitude toward them: their parents only value them for performing intelligence and constantly point out how superior they supposedly are to "normal" kids. (Hi, Dad.)

I wish I had an easy solution.

I was raised to be like that kid. I tried my best to fight my family's conditioning to uproot that.

I don't think I do a good job of it, even now in my thirties.

The idea of "giftedness" is a societal/emotional landmine and I don't know if there's a real way to disarm it.

That is good advice, and much better than the columnist's! "Listening to your coach is a vital sports skill" is something that LW might even be able to hear and take on board.

Some LWs really do suck but I think people who are paid to give advice should at least TRY to give them some actionable advice, rather than talking about their own issues for paragraphs and then ending on "you're bad and should feel bad." (Kibitzers like us are under no obligation to be useful, of course! But Doyin is supposed to be doing a job.)

I think there's a difficult balance they have to strike, because of course they aren't actually writing to LW, they're writing to their whole audience. And what the LW needs to hear as a response isn't always what the audience needs to hear (and tailoring your response so that LW might actually listen instead of brushing you off is often going to lead to your *audience* brushing you off instead of paying attention to the letter. Often if one of the columnists does write a response that seems tailored to maybe getting LW to actually listen, those are the ones this comm rips apart.) In a case like this, making a strong case that LW is wrongy wrong wrong and bullying is always bad may have been a better use of column space than actually giving LW advice. IDK.

Here, of course, we are just preaching to the choir and have a lot more space to work in!

do other people think this letter is real? I'm curious, because I know plenty of parents like this, but are they ones who would write this letter to Care and Feeding? Like, do they ever ask "am I wrong"?

that's a good question. Maybe this is like the MSG letter. I was about to say "maybe they expected a teacher contributor to C&F to tell them how to deal with the school" but they don't actually ask for that, so...

Edited 2022-07-26 18:22 (UTC)

It doesn't feel real to me. It doesn't have the "Other people are the problem and are punishing me for no reason" theme that so many entitled peoples' letters have. The part where this LW clearly admits that the daughter made the other player cry on multiple occasions is a detail that I would expect the parent to only vaguely suggest.

It feels fake to me. If it was real, I think it would have been more dismissive of the tears and gone into more detail about the other girl's supposed faults.

It feels to me like a "victim writes in from the POV of the bully" (or in this case bully's father). Real situation but not real letter, as it were.

LW, to start with, your kid is not the coach. It is not your kid's job to "toughen up" her teammate. If the teammate is playing badly, that's for the coach to handle.

Second, the coach thinks there's a problem. Trust me, the coach wants to win games too; if the coach thought your daughter's approach was the way to do it, coach wouldn't have said anything to you.

Third, which is more likely to make teammate a better player?

1. "Wow, Teammate, you really screwed X up; you suck; I can't believe I have to be on a team with you; you're going to ruin it for the whole team."
2. "Hey Teammate, you're having trouble with X and I know you can do better than that; want to practice it with me?" And spend 10-15 minutes working on it.

Reducing people to tears is Not On, regardless of how much of a reason they do or don't have for bursting into tears (just having to live through being a fucking teenager is good enough, most days).

I kind of picture LW as Brett Kavanaugh, who does in fact have a basketball-playing daughter that age. Or maybe someone who yearns to rub elbows with Brett Kavanaugh.

Reducing people to tears is Not On, regardless of how much of a reason they do or don't have for bursting into tears (just having to live through being a fucking teenager is good enough, most days).

Yes, assuming that the tears are real and not performative.

I went to primary school with a girl named Michelle whose favourite trick was bursting into floods of tears and running to a teacher with a made up story about another students imaginary wrong doing.

So many times I got in trouble because I wasn't crying, and Michelle was sobbing and red in the face, so clearly *I* must be in the wrong. Spoiler: Michelle was a bully who liked getting other kids in trouble for no reason at all.

I wonder if Michelle went into acting...

But LW's daughter definitely seems to be in the wrong here, and I feel very sorry for the teammate who is having to deal with LW's daughter.

Oh, true, though even the LW doesn't seem to think this girl is actually faking it, just that she's being a wuss.

Yes, assuming that the tears are real and not performative.

This is true, but in my experience I have known several women (including myself) who were accused of "crying manipulatively" when we were truly upset for every one who was able to turn on the tears at will.

Apparently, my daughter has reduced this girl to tears on multiple occasions, but my kid just wants to win.

For the love of God someone ban this child from school sports

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