agonyaunt | Dear Care & Feeding: Little Free Pantry Misuse

My first reaction was "is it so hard to talk to a kid?" but then my second was "otoh, I'm glad LW wrote in so the advisor could encourage her to be non-punitive in how she talks to the kid." Hmm.

also, I really need to get to my local LFP and fill it.

Especially in this case, where the thing to say is "hey, Joe, don't open the box and leave it in here; take the whole box home". If Joe's family is having food insecurity, they're who the LFP is *for*.

Yeah, I think the goals are

1. make sure he still feels comfortable taking food from the LFP if he or someone at home is hungry

2. tell him not to open stuff that needs cooking (like pasta) unless he is going to take it home with him

I don't know, in my experience as a library worker, the only thing that will make some people more angry than you giving them unsolicited parenting advice is if they think you're trying to parent the kid for them. (Even if what you're doing is, say, trying to keep their toddler from running out into the street while they're on their cell phone halfway across the room.) So I understand being hesitant.

But if this kid is spending a lot of time playing on LW's yard, they do need to be able to give them the house rules (and that includes the little free pantry in their yard.) So this is probably the right advice.

Not so sure about going to the school behind the family's back, though. :/ That might break any trust you ever had a chance of building with them.

talking to the kid about house rules (eg. litter) is perfectly normal and acceptable, when he's at the LW's house. The LW is the host at that point.

Talking to the school is a terrible idea. For one thing, it might result in a visit from social services, even if the family is totally fine and the kid is only snacking because he's 7 and likes snacks, and even if hungry just means "dinner isn't for hours, Ms. LW!" In a mostly white, mostly wealthy area, a social services visit to a Black, working-class, multi-generation, single parent family when a well-off white person has alleged child neglect to the school -- and yes, by the time it gets through layers of reporting, it's an allegation of neglect, not of underutilized anti-poverty programs -- could be extremely hostile or even dangerous for the family.

I'm not saying "never report", but certainly "never report on something as thin as when I put out free food, this seven year old ate some of it!"

Yeah, that whole bit pinged me as super wrong, but I think it was so wrong that I was trying to convince myself I'd missed something. "solve the problem without having to endure an uncomfortable encounter with his dad," "you don’t want to come off as a white savior" (how is skipping the guardians and going right to the authorities going to come off *less* as being a white saviour???)

If the only evidence you have of food insecurity is snacking after school, look, every kid I knew growing up was hungry until dinnertime, that's not food insecurity. But it sounds like he might have said enough other things for it to be legit concerning? In which case it seems like the obvious next step, after feeding him every chance you get, is to try to get to know the rest of the household better so you can do a better job of being a good neighbor to them (maybe start with encouraging him to invite the cousin over?)

(If the father is working long hours it's possible the great grandfather is not doing well themself and the father actually doesn't know how bad it is, but in that case you're still better off getting to know the family first!)

Also, LW, if you're noticing that Joe is often snacking out of the LFP while the kids are playing ... maybe serve snacks?????!

This!

Or at least make sure there's stuff in there that's more suitable for him than uncooked spaghetti!! You could probably solve the problem silently by just sticking, idk, single-serve poptart packets in there after school or something.

Just popping in to say: there are actually people who like crunching on uncooked pasta as a snack. Not that I would know any of those people.

I know some people like that too!

I also knew some people who grew up thinking it was normal because they were told to eat raw pasta when there was nothing else in the house. If he's growing up super food insecure or was responsible for his own meals way too young, he might not have the same categories of food that LW is working from, so talking about snack vs. not snack might not get the expected results. (Opening a package, eating some, and leaving the rest laying around also sort of sounds to me like someone who has been feeding himself since he was a toddler with very little guidance. :/)

But I have still met very few kids who would pick raw pasta over pop-tarts.

I also knew some people who grew up thinking it was normal because they were told to eat raw pasta when there was nothing else in the house. If he's growing up super food insecure or was responsible for his own meals way too young, he might not have the same categories of food that LW is working from, so talking about snack vs. not snack might not get the expected results. (Opening a package, eating some, and leaving the rest laying around also sort of sounds to me like someone who has been feeding himself since he was a toddler with very little guidance

Yeah, I regularly ate uncooked instant noodles as a kid because they were what was available. I'd even open the flavour sachets and eat the flavour powder straight out of the packet sometimes.

I also ate the petals of random flowers in the garden.

And paper.

I also regularly helped myself to the bottles of sweet flavoured medicine for diarrhea and sweet flavoured medicine for constipation that were in the fridge, because I was hungry, and I craved sweet food, and they were the only sweet food in the house [in addition to food insecurity from poverty, my parents also had a horror of sugar causing diabetes]. My parents were confused and perplexed by my stomach issues...

Crunchy noodles were/are the best part of spaghetti night!

I always like them best when they're about half-cooked, like still just a little stiff, but with a soft outside.

Or granola bars, or boxes of raisins, or single-serve cereal packets. Lots of options there.

Right, and that's an easy rule to give-- "If you need a snack now, take one of the snack things. If you want to take something home for later, take the whole package." (And if the kid brings something home that his family doesn't need or want, they can talk him about it.)

Yes, who allows elementary aged kids to play at their house without giving them all snacks all around? They're growing!

My family, because we couldn't afford snacks.

I don’t want to embarrass the father or cut off a source of food for Joe if he really needs it

Stop. Means-testing. Little Free whatevers.

Look, LW, it's really not clear to me if you're annoyed by the litter, by your worry that there might be a kid whose parents don't know he's food-insecure, by a child eating (heaven forfend) snacks, or by your worry that someone who isn't actually hungry is using the pantry. So let's address each of these:

You're annoyed by the litter? Easy fix. Speak to Joe. You have a kid the same age so you know perfectly well how to talk politely to other people's children when they're playing with your kid. Show him where the accessible trash can is, and ask him to use it.
You're worried his parents don't know he's hungry? Trust me, if Joe's family actually is food-insecure, they are aware. Worry solved.
You don't like to see a child eating snacks? I mean, that's a ridiculous worry and patronizing victorian BS, but you can take away the Little Free Pantry and give money to some local "veggies only" food pantry instead. I assure you they exist. If you're in the US, your state probably has a program that gives extra SNAP benefits that can only be spent at the local farmer's market; donate or volunteer there.
You don't want let anyone take from the Little Free Pantry if they're not actually in need? Hoo boy, too much to count:
- One of the problems with this kind of private charity is the panopticon of the recipients. Listen to the Rambam and stop looking at who's taking from it.
- You don't know who is in financial need and who isn't. People's lives are private. Stay out of it.
- If you don't want anyone who doesn't meet your definition of needy to get any charity, then stop running a Little Free Pantry.
- If you live in a mostly-white area "on the higher end of well-off" but you want to police who uses your Little Free Pantry, then you aren't someone who wants to help, you're someone who wants to publicly perform generosity, and you can GTFOOH.
- If you live in a mostly-white area "on the higher end of well-off" and you think that being a white person talking to the Black dad about his child's unhealthy snacking habits out of the charity box is a good idea, I want you to play this one out in your head a few times and think about it. Seriously, think about it. If you still haven't figured it out, think about someone posting that interaction on social media. Got it? Good.

It seems like LW wants to believe her problem is (2), but I don't think from her language that it really is.

Edited (clarification) 2022-05-20 18:18 (UTC)

Thank you for writing this, these are very salient points. I work in the nonprofit food insecurity field and deal with all those notions and more from donors, partners, clients, even newer staff.

Lovely, very thoroughly and cogently put! Give you the columnist's pay for this one.

God, I wish to inscribe "stop means testing Little Free Thingies" onto EVERY Little Free Thingy that exists. SHEESH.

Although in circumstances like the one below, where you 100% KNOW the person and know FOR CERTAIN that the person is very well to do and they are taking more than their fair share, I think it's okay to tell them to stop:

Dear Prudence,

There are Little Free Libraries in my neighborhood. For those that don’t know, they’re outdoor cabinets that people donate books to, and in my area, which is a mix of working class and low-income people, they also have snacks and hygiene products meant for people in need.
Somebody has been cleaning these libraries out completely, and books have turned up at local bookstores (some books are stamped before they’re donated with a stamp that, ironically, says “Little Free Library—Always for Free, Never for Sale”).

Recently, the culprit was caught on someone’s security camera. Her license plate was not visible, and she had a mask, so she hasn’t been identified, but I was shocked to recognize my MIL. After taking books, granola bars, seltzer, and period care packs, she then stole a package off the person’s doorstep! The library she stole from is used by people, kids and teens, in actual need!

I don’t like my in-laws that much, but I didn’t think my MIL was a thief. They live on the waterfront, own two cars and a boat, and vacation regularly. I know for certain they’re not secretly living in such poverty that they’d need to steal. I showed my husband. He’s also positive it’s his mom. He said she regularly stole from department stores when he was a kid, but other than a couple of embarrassing run-ins with store security, nothing ever happened. His dad views her stealing with annoyance and amusement. My husband called and tried to convince her to stop. She got defensive, but he managed to get out of her that she was selling the books for chump change (less than $10 dollars for an entire box!) to used book stores.

She only seemed mad she was caught and said she felt disrespected he would confront her about “taking some old books.” She said “it’s free anyway” and that the libraries “attract the homeless,” so she’s doing us a favor. She avoided the question about stealing the package.
Honestly, I think she’s just bored and entitled, and it really irks me. People from her town have always looked down on my city and particularly my neighborhood as a place full of theft and crime, and here she is contributing to it. Should I out her to the community, or even to the authorities? My husband thinks she’ll get bored of it after a while and stop. I think she should face some consequences. I’m a Black woman, and I for sure wouldn’t get away with the same!

— Stop Thief

Yeah, that one was on here awhile ago. My reaction was basically, "This woman has subscriptions and should get some consequences. Like, say, the person whose package she stole could/should prosecute. The Little Free Library, as a donation-based entity, is *way less the point*."

God this. It’s not free if you have to meet some kind of criteria to be deemed worthy.

Although in circumstances like the one below, where you 100% KNOW the person and know FOR CERTAIN that the person is very well to do and they are taking more than their fair share, I think it's okay to tell them to stop:

Dear Prudence,

There are Little Free Libraries in my neighborhood. For those that don’t know, they’re outdoor cabinets that people donate books to, and in my area, which is a mix of working class and low-income people, they also have snacks and hygiene products meant for people in need.
Somebody has been cleaning these libraries out completely, and books have turned up at local bookstores (some books are stamped before they’re donated with a stamp that, ironically, says “Little Free Library—Always for Free, Never for Sale”).

Recently, the culprit was caught on someone’s security camera. Her license plate was not visible, and she had a mask, so she hasn’t been identified, but I was shocked to recognize my MIL. After taking books, granola bars, seltzer, and period care packs, she then stole a package off the person’s doorstep! The library she stole from is used by people, kids and teens, in actual need!

I don’t like my in-laws that much, but I didn’t think my MIL was a thief. They live on the waterfront, own two cars and a boat, and vacation regularly. I know for certain they’re not secretly living in such poverty that they’d need to steal. I showed my husband. He’s also positive it’s his mom. He said she regularly stole from department stores when he was a kid, but other than a couple of embarrassing run-ins with store security, nothing ever happened. His dad views her stealing with annoyance and amusement. My husband called and tried to convince her to stop. She got defensive, but he managed to get out of her that she was selling the books for chump change (less than $10 dollars for an entire box!) to used book stores.

She only seemed mad she was caught and said she felt disrespected he would confront her about “taking some old books.” She said “it’s free anyway” and that the libraries “attract the homeless,” so she’s doing us a favor. She avoided the question about stealing the package.
Honestly, I think she’s just bored and entitled, and it really irks me. People from her town have always looked down on my city and particularly my neighborhood as a place full of theft and crime, and here she is contributing to it. Should I out her to the community, or even to the authorities? My husband thinks she’ll get bored of it after a while and stop. I think she should face some consequences. I’m a Black woman, and I for sure wouldn’t get away with the same!

— Stop Thief

It feels like the LW is just uncomfortable with someone using the pantry who she knows and who is her child's friend, instead of someone more distant from her, and is casting about for a reason to consider it an actual problem.

But if a kid is playing at her house and gets hungry--regardless of whether it's from food insecurity or just normal kid hunger--he shouldn't have to be going to the pantry. Offer him something to eat!

I'm on team "not your business" and team "talk to Joe directly".

I'm also baffled by the part where talking to the school is anything other than an escalation over talking to dad or GG directly.

Completely this. Why on earth would you jump from "kid snacks in the afternoon" to "contact social services"? What planet is this advice from??

But also, I don't think I was ever regularly at someone's house in the afternoon without being offered snacks? And it went both ways. Kids... eat... snacks...? Pretty sure they haven't evolved beyond it in the last twenty years.

But also, I don't think I was ever regularly at someone's house in the afternoon without being offered snacks? And it went both ways. Kids... eat... snacks...? Pretty sure they haven't evolved beyond it in the last twenty years

This... is not universal.

I have ONE memory of being offered a snack while playing at another kid's house. [I am excluding birthday parties, which usually had food]

And that one time the snack was chocolate flavoured milk, and the mother glared at me that I'd helped myself to too big a chocolate milk drink. (She told us we could have one glass, so I picked the biggest glass that was in the cupboard.)

The norm when I was growing up was that if kid-who-is-not-yours was hungry, it was obviously time for kid-who-is-not-yours to go home...

I never got the vibe that it was due to food insecurity - these were well off parents - just that they didn't want to be bothered with the fuss...

sigh I cannot imagine begrudging a child some chocolate milk drink. If I had to control serving sizes it would be easy enough to hand out the glasses rather than being so stingy

It was because the mother thought I was too fat and she didn't want her daughter becoming fat

I wasn't actually fat as a child, I just wasn't Hollywood-thin.

It was regular ordinary unflavoured milk mixed with spoonfuls of chocolate powder (Milo) out of a tin and dissolved in the milk by stirring

It's a wonder you weren't skin and bones, considering the horrific lack of nourishment in your household. And oh my GOD the damage of diet culture. I WAS a fat little kid and no amount of being hassled and starved has transformed me into a thin adult (ahahaha) . ANd people have the nerve to say this is about "health".

ugh. Anyway. hugs you

Huh. While I'm sure that I got occasionally offered food while at a friend's house and vice versa, I really don't remember that being a usual/regular thing? Obviously, when you were visiting at a meal time, or something to drink, but snacks as a regular thing? I really can't remember that.
And remembering the houses/apartments, I seriously doubt that was because of food insecurity.

I suppose we've uncovered a cultural divide? The other person who said she didn't recognize being offered snacks was a Kiwi. I'm a white middle-class American, and I was raised in the south, but most of the people I was ever friends with were non-southerners like my family (not that southerners don't offer food though).

Edited 2022-05-21 14:48 (UTC)

Very possible! I'm from Germany. Might also be a generational thing as well, because for me that age has been 30+ years ago - I don't really remember SNACKS being a regular thing, nevermind whether you were a visitor or not.

Yeah, I'm sure there are variations over time, social class, and regional divides as well as national divides when it comes to the culture of hospitality. However, going by the language of this letter, they are definitely North American and from a similar class/income background to mine, although it is twenty years later.

If you mean me, I'm Australian ^_^

Oh sorry! My wife thought Milo was only sold in New Zealand.

It's sold in quite a few "commonwealth" places actually - I'm familiar with it from Jamaica.

Interesting!

Now you can be assured of finding Milo in several countries! lauhgs at myself

I agree. A simple "If you open a package then take the whole package home" is simple enough to say and it solves most of the littering issue. The rest is none of LW's business.

I was like, "Why is this advice so bad and also weird?" but then I clicked and it's from Doyin, so, mystery solved!

*falls to knees, screaming skywards," DOYINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!

Ahahaha I read a different page with a different author and thought this page had that author too.

Care and Feeding has really gone downhill since Carvell Wallace left :(

THIS.

Do not talk to the father. Take your cue from the kid, who was reluctant to introduce you to his father. There could have been a very good reason for that, and your first duty is to not make things worse for the kid.

Dear Care & Feeding: Little Free Pantry Misuse

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