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agonyaunt2022-03-04 09:45 am
minoanmiss) wrote in agonyaunt2022-03-04 09:45 am
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Dear Prudence & Pay Dirt: Two Sisters (And Sociopolitics)
I wanted to compare and contrast these letters.
My parents, now in their late 70s, made awful financial decisions that culminated in them taking early social security-- a combined $1600 per month, with no other retirement or savings to live on. They both have mobility issues, and my dad is having memory issues, so working isn’t a possibility.
Two years ago, in order to keep them nearby in our increasingly expensive area, my sister and I decided that my parents would move in with my family, and my sister would contribute $400/month toward their living expenses. We didn’t have a written contract, but we do have a record of her doing this since they moved in.
Last month, we had a blowup with my sister over her refusal to get her kids vaccinated, and she stopped talking to all of us. And she’s stopped contributing funds. Do I have any recourse? Between debt payments and paying for physical therapy and other medical bills, my parents don’t have anything left over for anything social or other needs, so now it’s falling on my family to pay even more, on top of the increased utilities, food, etc. I’m furious that my sister put us in this position.
–We Still Need That!
Dear Still Need That,
Unfortunately, there’s no way to force your sister to pay up. She may have a moral obligation to help, but she has no legal obligation. I’m sorry that your family has to take on more of a burden because she’s chosen to selfishly withhold her contribution, and also that she’s selfishly refusing to vaccinate her children, which puts both them and your elderly parents at risk. For now, I think you just have to plan as if those contributions are not going to materialize, and budget accordingly.
I’m having a serious problem with my older sister, “Ella,” who is my only family. Our parents died when we were young, and we ended up moving through a lot of homes over a very unstable childhood. Ella often looked after me like a mother, even though there are just two years between us. For a long time, I would have said she was my best friend, but that changed radically when she met her now husband, when she was 19. He is a regressive bigot who opposes all my core values, and I am sorry to say that Ella has pretty much taken on his views as her own over the last several years. We are now both in our late twenties and only see each other at holidays and when I invite just Ella on occasional shopping trips, as I can’t stand being around her husband, and he refers to me as a “bad influence” on his wife.
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The issue that has arisen between us recently is that I am the maid of honor for my best friend, “Anne,” at her wedding this year. Anne is marrying another woman, who is also one of my close friends. I obviously have never spoken much about Anne with my sister and her husband, as I try to stick to subjects that they won’t be able to use as starting points for their bigoted rants. (I once mentioned a friend with a foreign-sounding name and got treated to an hour-long lecture on “scum” who are “overrunning the country,” for instance.) Another member of the wedding party recently posted some photos on social media of us at a dress fitting, where she mentioned the two future brides, and Ella saw. She also commented. Her comments were horrendous, all directed at me and saying how ashamed our parents would be if they knew I had grown up to be friends with “degenerates and perverts.” Ella told me, there in the comments, that our relationship as sisters would “have to end” if I didn’t pull out of this wedding. She was blocked by the friend who had posted the pics, but everyone including Anne saw the comments first.
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Anne called to ask if I was OK. She caught me in tears, and was incredibly kind. She told me that if I wanted to pull out of the wedding party to preserve my relationship with my sister, she would be very sad but would understand and did not expect me to choose between her and my sister. I told her that I didn’t want to do that at all—I’m not ashamed of celebrating my best friend’s relationship and was honored she wanted me involved. Anne seemed really happy about this but reiterated that I just needed to tell her before a deposit deadline if I changed my mind. She understands difficult family relationships very well, as she is now estranged from her own and understands some of my pain with my sister and feeling I’ve lost her to bigotry.
My problem is that I’m not sure what to do. Part of me really wants to pull out the wedding to appease my sister and preserve the fragile relationship we have—she has texted me since to say she will miss me terribly if she “has to” cut me off over this, and that she is waiting for me to reach out to “fix things” with her. In spite of what I said to Anne, I am torn—there is a small desire in me to just agree to pull out and keep the relationship with Ella, even if I’d feel ashamed about it, especially now I know that Anne would be kind about it and I wouldn’t lose her friendship. Can you advise me on what to do? I know what the objectively right thing to do is, but I’m struggling with the temptation not to do it to preserve my relationship with my sister.
— My Sister or My Values
Dear My Sister or My Values,
Do you think Ella has ever said to herself, “I’m struggling with whether I should be an outspoken bigot about things that aren’t my business or preserve my relationship with my sister”? Do you think she cares if she alienates you with her comments? I seriously doubt it—in fact, she’s already threatened to end the relationship. Don’t compromise your values and your friendship with someone who’s actually a decent person to stay on the good side of someone who’s not, and who will inevitably cut you off over something else stupid in the future. Be in the wedding. Tell Ella you don’t care what she thinks. It’s unlikely that she’ll actually cut you off, and the realization that her backward views don’t control you and you aren’t afraid of her might give your relationship the reset that it needs. And if it doesn’t, and she does? You might take a lesson from your queer friend’s experience that while family ties are important, maintaining them at the expense of your own peace and wellbeing is not worth it.
My parents, now in their late 70s, made awful financial decisions that culminated in them taking early social security-- a combined $1600 per month, with no other retirement or savings to live on. They both have mobility issues, and my dad is having memory issues, so working isn’t a possibility.
Two years ago, in order to keep them nearby in our increasingly expensive area, my sister and I decided that my parents would move in with my family, and my sister would contribute $400/month toward their living expenses. We didn’t have a written contract, but we do have a record of her doing this since they moved in.
Last month, we had a blowup with my sister over her refusal to get her kids vaccinated, and she stopped talking to all of us. And she’s stopped contributing funds. Do I have any recourse? Between debt payments and paying for physical therapy and other medical bills, my parents don’t have anything left over for anything social or other needs, so now it’s falling on my family to pay even more, on top of the increased utilities, food, etc. I’m furious that my sister put us in this position.
–We Still Need That!
Dear Still Need That,
Unfortunately, there’s no way to force your sister to pay up. She may have a moral obligation to help, but she has no legal obligation. I’m sorry that your family has to take on more of a burden because she’s chosen to selfishly withhold her contribution, and also that she’s selfishly refusing to vaccinate her children, which puts both them and your elderly parents at risk. For now, I think you just have to plan as if those contributions are not going to materialize, and budget accordingly.
I’m having a serious problem with my older sister, “Ella,” who is my only family. Our parents died when we were young, and we ended up moving through a lot of homes over a very unstable childhood. Ella often looked after me like a mother, even though there are just two years between us. For a long time, I would have said she was my best friend, but that changed radically when she met her now husband, when she was 19. He is a regressive bigot who opposes all my core values, and I am sorry to say that Ella has pretty much taken on his views as her own over the last several years. We are now both in our late twenties and only see each other at holidays and when I invite just Ella on occasional shopping trips, as I can’t stand being around her husband, and he refers to me as a “bad influence” on his wife.
ADVERTISEMENT
The issue that has arisen between us recently is that I am the maid of honor for my best friend, “Anne,” at her wedding this year. Anne is marrying another woman, who is also one of my close friends. I obviously have never spoken much about Anne with my sister and her husband, as I try to stick to subjects that they won’t be able to use as starting points for their bigoted rants. (I once mentioned a friend with a foreign-sounding name and got treated to an hour-long lecture on “scum” who are “overrunning the country,” for instance.) Another member of the wedding party recently posted some photos on social media of us at a dress fitting, where she mentioned the two future brides, and Ella saw. She also commented. Her comments were horrendous, all directed at me and saying how ashamed our parents would be if they knew I had grown up to be friends with “degenerates and perverts.” Ella told me, there in the comments, that our relationship as sisters would “have to end” if I didn’t pull out of this wedding. She was blocked by the friend who had posted the pics, but everyone including Anne saw the comments first.
ADVERTISEMENT
Anne called to ask if I was OK. She caught me in tears, and was incredibly kind. She told me that if I wanted to pull out of the wedding party to preserve my relationship with my sister, she would be very sad but would understand and did not expect me to choose between her and my sister. I told her that I didn’t want to do that at all—I’m not ashamed of celebrating my best friend’s relationship and was honored she wanted me involved. Anne seemed really happy about this but reiterated that I just needed to tell her before a deposit deadline if I changed my mind. She understands difficult family relationships very well, as she is now estranged from her own and understands some of my pain with my sister and feeling I’ve lost her to bigotry.
My problem is that I’m not sure what to do. Part of me really wants to pull out the wedding to appease my sister and preserve the fragile relationship we have—she has texted me since to say she will miss me terribly if she “has to” cut me off over this, and that she is waiting for me to reach out to “fix things” with her. In spite of what I said to Anne, I am torn—there is a small desire in me to just agree to pull out and keep the relationship with Ella, even if I’d feel ashamed about it, especially now I know that Anne would be kind about it and I wouldn’t lose her friendship. Can you advise me on what to do? I know what the objectively right thing to do is, but I’m struggling with the temptation not to do it to preserve my relationship with my sister.
— My Sister or My Values
Dear My Sister or My Values,
Do you think Ella has ever said to herself, “I’m struggling with whether I should be an outspoken bigot about things that aren’t my business or preserve my relationship with my sister”? Do you think she cares if she alienates you with her comments? I seriously doubt it—in fact, she’s already threatened to end the relationship. Don’t compromise your values and your friendship with someone who’s actually a decent person to stay on the good side of someone who’s not, and who will inevitably cut you off over something else stupid in the future. Be in the wedding. Tell Ella you don’t care what she thinks. It’s unlikely that she’ll actually cut you off, and the realization that her backward views don’t control you and you aren’t afraid of her might give your relationship the reset that it needs. And if it doesn’t, and she does? You might take a lesson from your queer friend’s experience that while family ties are important, maintaining them at the expense of your own peace and wellbeing is not worth it.
Further discussion of Letter #2
Dear Prudence Uncensored: “My Sister or My Values”
BY JENÉE DESMOND-HARRIS AND LISA MCINTIRE
MARCH 03, 20225:59 AM
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This week, Jenée Desmond-Harris and Lisa McIntire discuss a Prudie letter: “My Sister or My Values”
Lisa McIntire: Jenée … HOOOOO BOY
Jenée Desmond-Harris: I know.
Lisa: I feel awful for this letter writer, and I hope she knows that she’s not ungrateful for cutting this heinous person out of her life. Pardon the knee-jerk advice, but I would suggest a therapist ASAP to work through the grief.
Jenée: And aside from being ungrateful, she isn’t really losing much if this relationship ends.
This isn’t 20 years ago, this isn’t the Ella of 20 years ago. But yes, I get that a close family relationship ending is always going to hurt. And therapy would be great. Also just on the topic of like, standing up for yourself.
Lisa: You’re absolutely right. Her sister is only giving her pain and suffering at this point—AND deteriorating the relationships that are actually loving and supportive!
Jenée: I often get questions from people who want to cut off a relative who has bigoted or hateful views and insists on talking about them all the time, and I usually say: Cut ‘em off! People get really mad at me, but this is even easier. The bad person is the one making the choice to end the relationship.
Jenée: Completely.
Lisa: I get that we’re in a hyper-individualistic society and there should be some push-back/questioning of resorting too quickly to cutting people out, but your self-preservation and integrity should come first. In this case, Ella sound like an actual nightmare. Calling people “scum” and “degenerates and perverts”? Get the fuck out.
Jenée: And if it isn’t this, there will be some other ultimatum.
Lisa: Right. So whose feelings do you protect: an unapologetic bigot, or your caring friend’s and your own?
Jenée: If I were Anne, I’d be very offended.
Lisa: As would be your right! “Eep, sorry my very existence is offensive to your bigoted relative.” Do NOT pull out of the wedding, and please beg Anne’s forgiveness for even contemplating it!
Jenée: You know what’s going to happen when we publish this? At least two people are going to write to me and say Ella has mental health issues and needs compassion and care.
And like, if she does, I hope she gets help. But I also think some people can underestimate the extent to which people are just evil—I mean, look at the world!
Lisa: Truly. Being hateful and small-minded is not in the DSM, I am sorry to tell you!
Jenée: Look at the news about trans kids in Texas! A lot of people are cruel and bad, and they shouldn’t be coddled. So I hope Ella does end the relationship, and I hope she learns a lesson when she misses her sister—but either way I hope she suffers.
Lisa: Consequences for bigots! Try it out!
Jenée: The end!
Lisa: And for anyone tempted to write in, I’d ask: Why do you automatically give compassion to the person causing so much hurt? Why do you relate to them over the people receiving the hatred? Something to explore! Something to explore indeed.
Jenée: OK thanks, Lisa! For totally agreeing with me (and with all reasonable people).
Lisa: It’s easy to agree when you’re very right!
Re: Further discussion of Letter #2
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Sister #1: worthless anti-vaxxer, failure at filial duties, subsidising her parents cannot be forced out of her. Her company is literally dangerous at this time. Nothing the LW can do but farewell.
Sister #2: Prudie nails it with Do you think Ella has ever said to herself, “I’m struggling with whether I should be an outspoken bigot about things that aren’t my business or preserve my relationship with my sister”? Only one person ever seems to agonise about the relationship in these situations, and it's not the flagrant bigot.
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I know what I would do, and what I would do is write both the offending assholes off and tip the IRS that they really ought to be audited.
But I am also a vindictive bitch sometimes.
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It sucks for the first sister that her sister's a dick, that she's now bearing this financial burden alone, and that there's nothing she can do about it. Her sister can't be relied on, ethically (to keep her promises) or as a family member to help her family. And it sucks for the second LW that she has to make this choice, even though as everyone notes the choice is pretty obvious and the sister isn't a healthy connection anymore. It's heartbreaking that someone who was once nurturing to LW is now trying to emotionally blackmail her into cutting off her actually valuable friendship in order to maitain a ghost of a sisterly relationship with a person whose guiding principle is bigotry that she evidently willingly brainwashed herself into as an adult.
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But LW can't force Ella to leave him, no more than she can force her to stop being hateful. And it's certainly possible he's a bigot but not an abuser, that I'm reading more into those two words than is really there.
Even if it were 100% certain that he was abusing his wife, LW's obligation there is to help Ella leave if Ella asks for help. It doesn't go any farther than that. LW certainly should not be ditching her friend for the sake of a sister who doesn't seem to care enough to meet her halfway, and who is willing to cut her off over something that doesn't concern Ella at all. The fact that Ella is a hardcore, outspoken bigot, and that this issue is an outgrowth of that makes it even more clear.