conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2021-11-13 03:21 pm

A friendly palate-cleanser

By which I mean that the question does not make me angry/sad/worried.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: I am a 51-year-old cis woman with a unique name that is easily and consistently confused with a male name. This has resulted in countless incidents, from minor inconveniences to combative confrontations. I am a CEO, and people usually get very uncomfortable when they realize that they have "misgendered" me.

I have noticed that a lot of people have started to include their chosen pronouns in their email signature lines or other correspondence. I thought this might be an easy and painless way to "announce" my gender.

However, I am somewhat uncomfortable doing so. I feel like I am using an important issue affecting many vulnerable people and co-opting it to solve my stupid personal issue. My questions are:

1. How do I indicate my name and/or gender in a way that is not obnoxious, and that will minimize incidents where people call me by the wrong name or wrong gender (either by email or in person)?

2. Is it morally acceptable for me to list my preferred pronouns in my email or signature lines? And if it's not going to be effective, should I even try?


GENTLE READER: The simplest solution seems to Miss Manners to be to use "Ms." or "Mrs." in parentheses before your name in your correspondence.

As for using, or not using, a separate pronoun line, Miss Manners is in the etiquette, not the morals, business. But she observes that the world is a better place when people do the right thing for the wrong reasons than when they do the wrong thing for the right reasons.

https://www.uexpress.com/life/miss-manners/2021/11/11
cereta: (ivanova)

[personal profile] cereta 2021-11-13 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
The "Mrs" or "Ms" is just going to end up othering women even more, because men won't have to do the same. Also, it doesn't help someone whose title is "Dr." or "Prof." or "Judge."

Cis people putting pronouns after their name, OTOH, helps reduce the othering of trans*/non-binary people, since it can't be assumed that someone who includes their pronouns is not cis.
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)

[personal profile] rmc28 2021-11-13 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)

I feel that this LW's case is exactly one where specifying pronouns is appropriate: people often get it wrong, the gender they "expect" to go with the name isn't the right one.

I started adding my pronouns after going to Worldcon 2019, where there were pronoun badges, because I realised just how many names of people there were from cultures I didn't know well enough to know what gender was "expected" to go with the name. As I work in an organisation with people from many different countries, many of whom we initially and maybe only communicate with by email, normalising pronouns for everyone can avoid lots of embarrassments. (Not to mention all the people called Chris, Alex, Sam, Ali, etc which even in anglocentric heteronormative environments don't immediately offer a clue to gender)

Short version: LW isn't co-opting a solution she "shouldn't" use, she would be doing everyone a favour by making her pronouns explicit

lemonsharks: (Default)

[personal profile] lemonsharks 2021-11-13 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)

Not to mention all the people called Chris, Alex, Sam, Ali, etc which even in anglocentric heteronormative environments don't immediately offer a clue to gender)

"short for Alison? Short for Alison (male)? Not short for Ali (successor to Mohammed)? Who knows! Not me!"

jadelennox: Judith Martin/Miss Manners looking ladylike: it's not about forks  (judith martin:forks)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2021-11-13 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)

100% agreed on all counts. And also it's weird, because Miss Manners was the person from whom I learned that "Ms." is not a replacement for "Miss," and offering "Ms." and "Mrs." as choices implies that Ms. is just a feminist way to indicate an unmarried woman, and not a courtesy title for women that doesn't tell you marital status. Is someone else writing her answers these days?

ermingarden: medieval image of a bird with a tonsured human head and monastic hood (Default)

[personal profile] ermingarden 2021-11-13 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Agreed! In Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, she says that "'Mrs.' with a lady's first name is always incorrect" (p. 809 in the Kindle edition) – and the whole issue arose because of the LW's first name! Of course, Miss Manners does always note that if someone expresses a preference for, e.g., "Mrs." in all circumstances, that should be honored even if it's not technically correct. But I was surprised to see her seemingly giving the imprimatur to "Mrs." with the woman's first name, especially when "Ms." is so standard in a business environment.
ermingarden: medieval image of a bird with a tonsured human head and monastic hood (Default)

[personal profile] ermingarden 2021-11-13 09:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Because I realize that phrasing might be a little confusing:
Suppose John Doe marries Jane Smith. Jane can be properly addressed (according to Miss Manners, at least as of 2005) as "Mrs. John Doe," "Ms. Jane Doe," or "Ms. Jane Smith," but not "Mrs. Jane Doe" or "Mrs. Jane Smith."
cimorene: cartoony drawing of a woman's head in profile giving dubious side-eye (Default)

[personal profile] cimorene 2021-11-14 09:48 am (UTC)(link)
The original Miss Manners is, I think, retired or dead, and the job is now done by... maybe a daughter?
jadelennox: Judith Martin/Miss Manners looking ladylike: it's not about forks  (judith martin:forks)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2021-11-14 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)

That makes sense. Hmm, wikipedia says she's alive (yay) and 83, so I guess she deserves to retire.

I'm older now and have learned better how to make my own judgements (and learned where she's wrong), but in my 20s I credit Judith Martin for enabling the heavy lifting work of me turning myself into a person and a functioning member of society.

lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2021-11-14 01:07 am (UTC)(link)
The "Mrs" or "Ms" is just going to end up othering women even more, because men won't have to do the same.

FWIW, I've seen the Mr. added to names like Kim, Ashley, etc. I think that was even my first and only exposure for a long time. Then I saw Ms. added to names that seemed ambiguous. And now I'm starting to see pronouns for non-ambiguos names. All this in work correspondance.
ioplokon: purple cloth (Default)

[personal profile] ioplokon 2021-11-13 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
hm. so generally, i think whoever would like to put their pronouns in their email signature or elsewhere should do so but... LW being the CEO makes it a bit of a bigger deal, imo. I would say that if she wants to put her pronouns in her email signature, her company should actually have a good track record of supporting and welcoming trans and nonbinary people (incl. medical benefits that support transition).

I mean, every CEO should work to make sure this is the case, and it seems like LW is already sensitive to these issues, which hopefully has translated to her already doing these things at her company. But if the company's encouraging people to list pronouns, I think the leadership should make the extra effort to make sure that people with nonbinary or unexpected pronouns aren't disadvantaged.

Basically, I think the CEO listing her pronouns in the email signature implies that the workplace is/strives to be trans & nonbinary friendly so, like, try to make sure that is actually the case (bc disclosing pronouns does not achieve this in & of itself). Considering how much hostility LW faces when people find out she's a woman, it seems like this industry is hostile to people who don't Fit expectations - how can LW make her company the exception to that?
kindkit: A late-Victorian futuristic zeppelin. (Default)

[personal profile] kindkit 2021-11-14 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
I see your point, but also, as a trans person, I feel very strongly that asking people to use your correct pronouns does not have to be earned. This applies to cis people as well as trans and nonbinary ones.

She should be thinking about whether her business is as safe as possible for trans and nonbinary people, but that's because every boss should be doing that. Being so frequently misgendered should hopefully give her a little more understanding and motivation.

Having said that, there are a lot of companies and organizations whose trans/NB inclusivity goes no further than pronouns in email signatures, and it's disgusting. But I think it's useful to distinguish between her personal need to be gendered correctly (which doesn't have to be earned) and claiming to be an ally or to have an inclusive workplace (which does).
ioplokon: purple cloth (Default)

[personal profile] ioplokon 2021-11-14 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, thank you for this precision! I think this what I was trying to articulate about like her rights as a person vs her responsibility as CEO. But I think w/ the subject of the letter, I got too tangled up in the signature thing.
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2021-11-14 01:09 am (UTC)(link)
If I could have a .sig file on Ask A Manager, it would be "yes, cis people putting their pronouns is a GOOD THING ACTUALLY... just don't make me put mine". So I guess I need that for Miss Manners, too.
shirou: (cloud)

[personal profile] shirou 2021-11-14 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Some people have names that aren't specific to only one gender, e.g., Alex, Taylor. I am a cis-man, and my name is explicitly male in my language, but some English-speakers won't recognize the affiliation. There are plenty of good reasons to include pronouns in an email signature in addition to normalizing the practice for trans people—which, of course, is also a good reason. Go for it, LW.