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Q. Stuck in the middle: My father has always been a smart aleck who loves practical jokes and discreetly needling people. My husband has been one of his favorite targets for stupid pranks and comments about his choice in clothing, hairstyle, shoes, or whatever else stands out. For many years, I’ve warned my father that my husband disliked him and that his behavior was causing real animus.

It never registered for him until recently, when my husband—whom I had never previously seen angry—lost it completely. One moment we were saying hello, then my dad said something, and then my husband got in his face, shoved him up against a wall, and put a fist straight through the brick work, all while roaring death threats. My father was absolutely terrified and is now deeply upset and demanding an apology. My husband, meanwhile, is completely unrepentant, blames me for not managing my parents, and is refusing to ever speak to or see that side of my family again. He has also said that he does not want our children exposed to them again and inferred that should I wish to contest, that we can discuss it in a custody hearing.

I am angry with both of them. My father sort of had it coming, but my husband has no business threatening to kill a 76-year-old man, which he does every time I mention his name. That divorce is starting to look pretty damn tempting, as is never seeing my father again, but I love everybody involved and really want to resolve this. What can I do? Am I in the wrong here for asking my husband to deal with my dad? Does my dad actually deserve an apology? Is there a universe where I get to knock both their heads together repeatedly?

A: On the one hand, your dad is annoying and rude. On the other hand, your husband physically attacked and threatened the life of an elderly man, has cut off contact with your family, and is making plans for a contentious divorce. They both have flaws, but the flaws are not equivalent—not even close. I can’t imagine this is the first time your husband has violently overreacted, but it probably won’t be the only time. His threats about custody are especially misplaced because, with behavior like this, he is a much worse influence on your children than your father is.

You’ve framed this as a question about their relationship, but it should really be a question about your marriage—which, unless your husband offers a very sincere apology to you and your father and convinces you that he’s making a plan to prevent himself from acting this way again—is over.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/dad-bullied-husband-threatening-divorce-dear-prudence-advice.html

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But meanwhile, I have one burning question, which is: WHAT THE HELL DID DAD SAY TO HUBBY!?

And, for that matter, what has he been saying this whole time while LW blithely ignored it?

Not that this answer is wrong, but I am *dying* to know what, exactly, triggered all this.

ME TOOOOOOOO

Not only what did he say, but what were those "practical jokes" and "stupid pranks" the husband found so provocative he not only lost his temper in one explosive moment, but doesn't want the kids in the room with their grandparents ever again?

Edited 2021-07-08 19:17 (UTC)

yeah the violent death threat is terrifying, but if husband doesn't want the kids exposed to grandad, I have to say there's a missing reason the size of the Marianas trench. Bodyslamming the dad in response to words isn't okay (and may absolutely be grounds for the LW to get the hell out of the situation), but you don't imply you'd win a custody hearing because your father in law was mean to you.

I bet that either father in law does it to the kids as well, or the words to the husband are also aimed at the kids (racism, fatphobia, class, accent, etc).

Wow, there is so much missing here that I have no idea how bad the situation actually is. But it sounds pretty severe if the husband is talking divorce to keep the children away from LW's parents.

I'm seeing an issue with LW - why the fuck haven't they actually stood up for their husband? Not just warning, but standing up and leaving when the father has done that. Because that is a bullying issue, and it has obviously been going on for years. Husband isn't in the right, but I'd be keeping the kids away from grandfather as well.

But I'm prejudiced - I threw my (now ex-)father in law out for tormenting a very tired small child. Not physically, but I did raise my voice and swear when the 'don't do that' got ignored.

I'm also seeing an issue with LW ignoring the situation for so long and then acting like the victim when everything blows up around her. Like, nobody's in the right here, and if she knew how much this disturbed her husband but she didn't take actions to back him up against her dad, no wonder he lost his shit and wants a divorce.

Exactly! I mean, I think Prudie is right that you can't stay married to someone who acts like her husband did without assurances that they get why it's bad and are attempting to get therapy and ensure it never happens again. But she's totally wrong that he thereby 'forfeited all right to an apology'. If her dad has been verbally abusive to him for years - and unless she's vastly overstated the case I think he has - then not only is he still owed an apology for that, he's probably right that her kids shouldn't be exposed to the guy. My evil abuser grandfather "reformed" when his kids grew up by downgrading to "teasing" bullying and my sister and one of my cousins were afraid to go to his house when they were little. I don't think the kids would be losing anything valuable.

Before I read the answer:

Gosh, so your father's been needling and targeting your husband for YEARS, and you want your husband to "deal with" him? Nope!

I mean, yes, physical attack is beyond the pale, but so should this kind of targeted abuse.

(I think the divorce part is sad, but not actually beyond the bounds of reason, if you're going to let a guy *abuse your spouse* for years. Like, your husband wants to protect your kids, zut alors the shock!)

Post answer reading: I feel a bit like a space alien, here, given Prudie's reaction. But it is true that there's reason for divorce on *all* sides here. And it is true that ragesplosions need to be dealt with. So... good point on that, at least.

"...What can I do? Am I in the wrong here for asking my husband to deal with my dad? Does my dad actually deserve an apology? Is there a universe where I get to knock both their heads together repeatedly?"

In order: Dunno, yes, yes, no. Personally, I would take your father's emotional abuse of your husband seriously, and talk to him about that. I would ask your husband to apologize to your father, *if* your father will also look at his own actions in this succession of events and reconsider his own behavior. Especially because it really *isn't* good for your kids, if it's constant and unremitting.

Yeah, everyone in this mess needs to apologize, including LW for not protecting her spouse during years of harassment.

I was in a similar situation. And so I do sort of see this from the husband's point of view.

My inlaws "tease" and my wife believes that "this is how they show love" What I hear when they tease? Mean terrible things that are like brain weasels that get inside my wife's head and tear her self esteem down. I grew up with someone who said terrible things to me (out right terrible, no pretend teasing involved) and I removed that from my life. And so when they said those things to me or my wife I told them NO. and STOP. And you are not allowed to say that to her or me. What my wife got was "you need to tell her to apologize to me, she can't disrespect me in my home". I kept telling my wife I refused to be treated that way.

It came to a head one day and I announced we were leaving due to the way they were treating me and my wife refused to leave. It's a 4 hr drive and I was trapped. I stayed but it was a terrible bargain. We only go up 4 times a year and the next time we went I had a meltdown about a week before we left. She had NO IDEA where this meltdown was from. When I reminded her she was absolutely shocked. She hadn't noticed, she didn't remember me saying we were leaving. She completely and utterly had wiped it from her memory.

This is why I believe the wife when she said about her husband "whom I had never previously seen angry" that she had NO IDEA how bad it had gotten. She grew up in that environment and to her it doesn't even register what her dad has been doing. She hasn't believed her husband bc it can't be that bad if she grew up with it and she is "fine". If she wants to repair the relationship with her husband (which I believe should be the first thing she does) she needs to see it from his perspective and agree that there will be no more bullying by her father to him. And if the boundary he wants is no more going over and the kids can't go either.. then that is the boundary. She can see her family by herself. Maybe with therapy (and I mean EVERYONE gets therapy: father, her, and her husband) the kids can go over supervised with the wife, but only after therapy.

This this ABSO FREAKING LUTELY THIS.

"That's just the way they are" well "they" need to stop being shitty people.

Well and truly said, mea amica

I believe the wife when she said about her husband "whom I had never previously seen angry" that she had NO IDEA how bad it had gotten.

I don't buy that. LW specifically says, "For many years, I’ve warned my father that my husband disliked him and that his behavior was causing real animus." So LW knew her father's behaviour deeply bothered her husband. What LW didn't realize was how well her husband had controlled his actions up to his breaking point.

LW shares the blame here. It doesn't matter if she was "fine" with her father's teasing, or that she grew up with it. (I grew up with it too. It certainly wasn't "fine.") What matters is that she knew how her husband felt and still allowed it to continue. LW needed to step in and tell her father "This needs to stop now or we don't visit anymore," *then follow through*, before it ever got that far.

Hey for years I had told my wife what they were saying was abusive. It wasn't until I had a crying breakdown that she finally heard me. And it wasn't until about 2 years later when she visited them by herself and they were abusive towards her that she believed me. I *knew* that she would finally see it, but I also knew I couldn't handle the abuse and be told it was just teasing anymore.

I agree LW shares the blame, but I also think she has had no idea how bad it was. If it rolls off her back why doesn't it just roll off her husband's is how she sees it. Now she has the blinders off what she does next is more important.

This answer makes me angry.

Husband has silently tolerated his FIL's abuse for years and finally snapped--I think he's completely within his rights to go full no contact with the inlaws and to keep the kids away from them.

And while getting physically violent is not appropriate, there is no indication in the letter that husband has ever behaved violently before or that he ever will again.

Maybe being "absolutely terrified" will stop FIL from abusing people because he thinks it's funny. But I frankly doubt it.

Fucking WORD. (this one made me angry too)

Except where now that the calm has settled and it isn't a reaction in the moment the husband is STILL threatening to kill her father.

I agree that Prudie has made light of the father's behaviour but let's not give the husband a pass on "he's probably not violent" if he's still framing hsi anger towards the father as death threats days after the heated exchange.

We have a lot of missing information but I don't think either are very safe people to be around based on this letter.

Except where now that the calm has settled and it isn't a reaction in the moment the husband is STILL threatening to kill her father.

My father sort of had it coming, but my husband has no business threatening to kill a 76-year-old man, which he does every time I mention his name.

I think this is clearly the most effective way to get LW to shut up about reconciliation, and that the context of Husband having rarely if ever having expressed anger and never having been violent before. The history of his actions carry more weight than the words of his frustration.

I think the LW is being an unreliable narrator/exaggerating with "every time I mention his name"

I think any "death threats" is not something the husband actually intends to carry out. We also do not know if these "threats" are "I'm going to kill him" or "Everything would be better if he would just die*". What we do know is that the LW isn't giving us the whole story (or that the column editor pared away necessary context).

Your mileage may, of course, vary.

Edited 2021-07-08 15:50 (UTC)

I also have strong reason to believe that "every time" LW "mentions" the name of her emotionally abusive father, it's in the context of attempting to convince her husband that her father Really Means Well.

Except where now that the calm has settled and it isn't a reaction in the moment the husband is STILL threatening to kill her father.

I'm not 100% sure that's correct even though LW says it.

I think there's a difference between any sort of credible threat and "If he hurts my kids again, he's dead" without any sort of... idk, planning? People say that sort of thing all the time, and while admittedly Husband has screwed it up by actually acting physically aggressive towards Dad, that doesn't mean "I'll kill him" adds up to an actual threat to do that.

As someone who has been abused until they snapped, with the "where did that come from, it was only a joke" treatment afterward---I'm on husband's side. He snapped. It happens. If he hasn't been physically violent before, and he targeted his tormenter... well, then she should back him up when he says he never wants to see FiL again and the kids aren't going over there either. And maybe the LW should take a break from her family and try therapy to understand how corrosive their bullying culture is.

The letter makes me wonder whether husband is abusive as well (I can't believe she hasn't seen him this angry before, possibly she's scrubbed it from her memory because it didn't directly affect her, and the fact that the death threats ARE CONTINUING at even MENTIONS of her father does not improve my impression of hubby) and, yeah, okay, put up with what her father said for a long time before attacking him, but he STILL ATTACKED HIM.

LW should take the kids and run until all parties get therapy. Because husband attacking father is also an implicit threat to her and the children.

My ex and I made it through four years and an amicable breakup without ever being angry at one another, or raising our voices at one another, so it's not something I consider out of the ordinary. It just requires dedication to mutual kindness and communication.

Edit: TBH, I have the instinct that Husband should take the kids and move across the country until LW agrees to permanently removing her father from their lives.

Which just shows that different people can make wildly different conclusions based on the things each individual brings to the table.

Edited 2021-07-08 15:49 (UTC)

I dunno. I am the kind of person who will put up with something silently for years and then finally yell once, and everyone acts so SHOCKED because I NEVER MINDED BEFORE. (am working on it.) And I too wonder what the death threats are actually are (detailed plans or "I don't want to see him ever again he can die for all I care") And I don't think decades of verbal abuse are that... minimal? Words are not as far from actions as we often estimate, and can be a kind of violence themselves.

I'm not saying the husband was right but I'm not convinced he was the clear and only villain here.

And I feel bad for the kids. I'm not sure any of the three adults involved are great for them.

I am interpreting "death threats" as probably being "if he says [something] to me again, I'm going to kill him." Which is . . . not great! But also the giant gaping hole around "my dad said something" makes it hard to assess what the hell is going on here.

I find myself wondering whether Husband is the same ethnicity/culture as Wife, and how "comments about his choice in clothing, hairstyle, shoes" may actually be comments about that.

I was wondering the same but wasn't sure if I wanted to bring it up. But now that you have I can thoroughly agree. :)

That's entirely possible and yet another piece of missing information.

(But even even if husband looks like Chris Elliott at his Roland Schittiest and wears nothing but oversized, disintegrating WWE t-shirts, board shorts, and Crocs with novelty socks, FIL's decades of verbal abuse over it is still unacceptable.

It's worse if he's been persistently cruel while also being racist.

Eta: this is very much an, "I agree with you and" :)

Edited (Clarification) 2021-07-08 16:49 (UTC)

There are a lot of people who suffer abuse until they max out and lash out. It's not a great coping strategy, but the abuse isn't great either and the abuse is the real problem.

So much this.

Especially if they have a history of being the one who always goes along.

Yes, this.

It could honestly go either way. There's just enough detail to paint a picture, but there's nowhere near enough to see where LW is lying or otherwise being a bit casual with the truth.

To add to the list of missing things: I find it interesting that the father's age is specified but not the husbands. How long is "many years" of "stupid pranks and comments"? Ten years? Twenty? How much of this man's life has been spent putting up with his shitty father-in-law? FiL is currently 76, but how old was he when this abuse started? How old was your husband? Why haven't you stood up for him harder?

Like other people, I want to know what the final straw was.

This was years of targeted harassment by a FIL to his SIL which finally reached the point of his SIL snapping. While I can't say I've ever punched a wall and yelled death threats, I can admit that I've snapped over "practical jokes and discreetly needling" after just a couple of days. I can't imagine going through years of that nonsense. LW's father needed that dose of reality, even if it probably won't solve the problem of him being a jackass to people in general.

At the same time, the husband needs to drop the death threats and possibly offer to pay for repairing the brickwork, ideally without ever coming into contact with his in-laws.

I'm on team "Yay, divorce! ♥" with a side of "Therapy for everyone!" as the best fix here, particularly if it results in the kids being kept away from their grandfather.

Edited (edited to get rid of a second "finally" that snuck into the first sentence) 2021-07-08 23:30 (UTC)

If he punched through actual brickwork, that's terrifying, and someone capable of that needs to be very sure they will not snap and use their skills in anger, no matter the provocation.

If he punched through, like, Masonite brick panelling or a thin brick veneer, which seems substantially more likely, and it really was the first time you'd seen that, meh, he snapped, sounds like he'd earned it and your father wasn't going to take a subtler hint. LW you should talk to him about how his violence made you feel (you, not your father), and you should also stop putting your husband or minor kids in contact with your father until your father is ready to sincerely repent and your husband is ready to believe it, which may be never on both counts.

Honestly though? I gotta admit it's hard to believe this is the first time your husband has ever done something like this. This wasn't instinct - you have to learn to channel your anger into controlled violence, and the fact that his response didn't scare *him* implies that this doesn't feel like an extraordinary reaction to him. Maybe he's been careful to keep his violence away from you until now, or maybe you've just never been forced to face it, but I don't think it's new and I don't think it's rare and he's not hiding it anymore.

Edited 2021-07-09 02:50 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with your interpretation here (and I think more with Prudie than with the line of our community). FIL is probably a horrible person, LW is being a nasty enabler and should have stuck up for her husband firmly and effectively long before now. But assuming the facts presented have any relationship to the truth (there are very obvious gaps, things we are not being told, but looking at what is there): husband is terrifying. He shouldn't be allowed near kids and LW needs a safety / escape plan yesterday.

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