Dear Prudence: Mom Threatens To Baptize Child Against Father's Will

[minoanmiss]

Not very long but I'm cutting it anyway. Dear Prudence,
I’m Jewish by conversion, having been raised in a conservative Christian environment. My parents are generally good, even mostly liberal these days. However, my mom has directly told my mother-in-law (also a Christian) that she would have any child of mine baptized against my will. My wife is not pregnant, but this offends me deeply, terrifies me, and honestly is making it difficult to even be sexually intimate with my wife for fear of this. What do I do?
—Religious Kidnapping

You have every right to be angry and offended about this promise to directly contravene your rights as a parent and your Jewish faith. In the short term, you and your wife can talk about how you want to respond to this and how you two can back each other up when your respective families try to butt in, and have more concrete conversations about what sort of religious training, if any, you two would want your future children to receive. I don’t know if your wife is also Jewish or to what degree she supports your conversion, but she should be your first choice for discussion and support right now. In the long term, you can tell your mother that her ability to spend even supervised time with any children of yours will entirely depend on whether she’s able to commit to agreeing not to kidnap and forcibly baptize them. If she can’t do that (or even if you suspect her agreement is superficial and an attempt to get you off her back), then she won’t be given the opportunity to take any children of yours anywhere. The choice is hers.

Comments

n.b.

[minoanmiss]

The reason this caught my eye is that when I was being raised in an Evangelical Christian church I was taught that the Most Important Thing was for someone to be 'saved'. Also, while reading about religion and secular authority I recently read about a case in the late 1800s where a Roman Jewish child was baptized by his nurse, and then taken from his parents and raised by the Catholic Church. I wonder what my parents would think if I sent this to them -- would respect for parents' authority overrule the desire for as many people as possible to be Christians, or the other way around?

Re: n.b.

[lemonsharks]

From a really similar background (raised evangelical christian, currently somewhere on the agnostic/atheist continuum): If my parents pulled this shit they would not be alone with my hypothetical kids for even so long as it took to take a bathroom brea. I've already told them that religion is a banned topic with any offspring of mine, and that's a hill I will happily die on.

And that's without the extensive history of antisemitism and child-stealing that LW converted into.

And that goes double for in-laws (who I don't know and can't predict as well as my own family).

Re: n.b.

[cereta]

A friend's mother who was raised Catholic told me that they were taught how to make "emergency baptisms" in school. Like, if a baby was on the train track and the train was coming at them (it was many years before the weirdness of that scenario actually hit her; when she was little, she would walk home along the train tracks hoping to see a baby she could baptize).

The idea that someone not being "saved" would condemn them to an eternity of suffering does create a worldview in which tactics that most people would consider at best questionable suddenly become acceptable. Well, acceptable to the people using them; not to me. NGL: if my MiL weren't a fairly passive person, I'd wonder if she hadn't performed a bathroom-sink baptism on the small fanperson.

Re: n.b.

[watersword]

You're thinking of the Mortara case, I think, and I do want to point out that kidnapping, forced conversion, and adoption by Christians of Jewish children was also something that happened during the Shoah (and let's not get into the lack of fucks given by the Roman Catholic church about Jews in general; they could barely bring themselves to care about people with Jewish ancestry who had converted to the RC Church), and a fun element of the growing interest in genealogy is people discovering their ancestors were conversos under the Inquisition.

(I'm probably not going to be engage with any kind of comment thread, I'm sorry, this is apparently pushing some buttons for me.)

[movingfinger]

The consequence has to be "no grandparent time with the children at all, alone, not even one minute at home or out of it" because this species of bible-thumper is notoriously sneaky.

But in the immediate future, they have a controlling-parent problem more than a religion problem. The LW is being cock-blocked by the prospect of his abusive, bullying mother messing with the hypothetical future children. Yes, talking to his wife about it and setting out where they stand, TOGETHER, against this awful practice, might make him feel more secure and at ease.

But also, back away from the toxic mother. Limit exposure. She isn't good for LW and wife. Get her out of the social media feed, stop going over for Sunday lunch or whatever regular interactions there are, and keep phone calls short and scheduled. If she brings up kids or religion---gotta go, sorry! And if she calls it out, point out that she made herself disagreeable with this transgressive baptism plan. (Showed her hoof, even.)

[sporky_rat]

As an Episcopalian, the idea of forcibly baptising anyone horrifies me to the core, rather like sending children out to proselytize and tell people they're going to Hell if you don't discuss your faith with them.
(Yes, that happened. I was very disturbed.)

Forced baptism doesn't even count! Baptism is something a person does for themselves!
(More or less. There's infant baptism by parents and then confirmation. By *parents*, not grandparents.)

No children near these grandparents! Ever!

[sporky_rat]

I'm so horrified by this letter and the awfulness that I had to go wrap up in a blanket and rock.

[julian]

What's your instinctive Episcopalian reaction to one parent not wanting baptism and the other doing it anyway?

[resonant]

I had the same thought: if any more argument is needed other than the fact that it's obviously morally repulsive, from my Episcopalian perspective it's also religiously meaningless.

I got dragged to see "Overcomer" earlier this year, and the story involves some teachers participating in a pretty hideous deception of a teen's guardian in order to allow the teen to do a thing that's viewed as being her religious duty -- and the movie barely acknowledges that, like, lying to a kid's parental figure is bad.

If someone's religious belief is "the Creator of the Universe needs me to lie for him*," the whole context of their religious belief needs some closer examination.

* because you know it's always a him

[xenacryst]

If or when a child does enter the picture and is old enough to use language and comprehend the very basics of what is happening to themselves, give them a script for when grannie decides to kidnap them (yes, as well as limiting grannie exposure, but here's following the concept of security in depth). That script should include things like yelling, flailing, physical self defense, and as they get older, things like verbal confrontation and self defense tactics, calling a safe person, having an escape plan, running away, etc.

[heavenscalyx]

I think there's a lot more going on in this relationship between LW and their mother if this threat is actively interfering with their ability to be intimate with their wife. Thaaaaaat's some serious unpacking in therapy territory, and possibly putting the relationship with the mother on the back burner in the interest of becoming safer and saner in oneself.

If a kid happens, no unsupervised time with kidnappy grandmom, and as the kid becomes old enough, discussing with them why kidnappy grandmom isn't allowed time with them is indicated. If kidnappy grandmom gets hold of them and happens to get some asshat to dump water over child's head, discussion of how that changes nothing if the child didn't choose it, it's not Magical Water That Fundamentally Changes Their Being, it's a symbol of a choice and commitment that was forced on them. And then kidnappy grandmom gets ZERO time with child.

[cereta]

Yeah, that's...I mean, if LW is upset enough about this to be avoiding even non-procreative sex with his wife, that's a deep problem. I think the LW probably needs some individual counseling, if for no other reason than to develop an action plan for when they do have a child.

[julian]

My mom actually baptized me (into the Episcopal faith though not, obviously, the church) herself (late at night), without telling my dad, who actively did not want me baptized.

A different situation, obviously, but in retrospect, I wish she hadn't.

[minoanmiss]

I wouldn't've expressed my opinion if you hadn't expressed yours, but... yeah. I think that's an unfair and unkind thing to do to one's childrearing partner.

[edenfalling]

This sort of thing is always weird for me to read about, because on the one hand this is clearly an important issue to the LW and his mom has serious boundary issues... but on the other, baptism is a splash of water that does precisely nothing unless the person being splashed imbues it with meaning. Or, you know, if the people around them insist on making it into a big deal. It's like when kids stumble and bruise a knee, they're usually fine but if their parents flip out then they figure something must be wrong and start crying.

So yeah, I'd keep any hypothetical child away from the mom, and I think LW should definitely talk to his wife about how to handle religion in reference to their hypothetical children, but on the other hand I second heavenscalyx about teaching said hypothetical child that if grandma gets splash-happy, the splash does not define Hypothetical Child's being and future.

[cereta]

I think there are two things that make it more than just a boundary issue:

1. The LW has made a conscious decision to follow a faith different from the one his parents follow. That's a pretty big life change. It's not just no longer following a religion. It's actively choosing another. And it's not just a denominational change; it's an entirely different religion. Having investigated converting to Judaism, it's not a simple or easy matter, either.

2. There's also a very nasty history with the two religions: forcible baptisms, children being taken from Jewish parents to be raised Christian, one religion retroactively baptizing Jewish ancestors...the larger context makes this a lot more than a splash of water.

[tielan]

Just on the baptism issue: yeah. Baptism to me is an external sign of an internal decision to commit to the faith - like a wedding ring is the external sign of an internal decision to commit to another person.

That said, I know of people who think that 'being baptised into the faith' is pretty much How You Get To Heaven which... *shakes head*

And, uh, grandma, what you are proposing is way out of line and until you respect your son and DIL's decision on their kids and how they plan to bring up their kids in whatever faith they choose, you are considered untrustworthy and not to be left with the children.

[minoanmiss]

Well, symbols matter. Not that this prospective baptism should be allowed to define the child, who should absolutely be told it doesn't define them, but doing it is a huge deliberate disrespect to the LW's religion and his choice to join it. I can see why it horrifies him all the way down.

[lavendertook]

Way too often, human families are just horrific. I dunno--all I got is "Run away! Run away!" Really, why would you want to maintain a relationship with anyone who talked about doing anything against your will to your child? A rhetorical question because there are lots of reasons why people can't leave.

I'm further disturbed by the lack of discussion by LW of how his wife feels or fits into all of this. And it continues . . . .

[staranise]

On a really practical basis, I'm wondering: Does forced baptism in any way prevent the child from having a fully Jewish life? Like, if Evil Grandma ambushes them with a squirt bottle in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is there... any way in which that negates the child's Jewishness or hinders them from participating in Jewish culture? (And if so, how does one undo a baptism?)

I guess just, I often try to cope with things by imagining the worst-case scenario. If the child actually does get forcefully baptized, how do Jews deal with symbolically and practically reclaiming their children's religious upbringing?

I think it makes sense that LW is very afraid of the impact of a person who had total power over him when he was very weak and vulnerable. But he's still able to do a lot to shield his potential children from their grandmother--there are a lot of us out there whose exposure to toxic grandparents was very much ameliorated because the people who actually took care of us and loved us and taught us how to live were completely different people, and our grandparents were only occasional guests.

[liv]

See watersword's comment: it's viscerally horrifying, it's not just about practical consequences. It's pretty close to kidnapping the (hypothetical) child and drawing Nazi symbols on their body; yes, you could wash them off, and nothing material would change going forward, but it would still be your own parents taking the side of centuries of people murdering people like you. (To be absolutely clear, this is not because I consider Christians in general in any way equivalent to Nazis, but because forced baptism is something that Nazis and other murderers of Jews have repeatedly done throughout history.)

In terms of religious status, I think some authorities would regard it as a false baptism because there was obviously no meaningful intent for the child to be Christian on the part of either the kid or the parents. But others think that someone who is baptized can't be Jewish without converting, and I have a bad feeling this includes deciding Jewish status for the purpose of having the right to live in Israel, and for marrying a fellow Jew in some denominations. (An individual person might not care what those sorts of authorities thought about their Jewish status, but there could well be consequences.)

The symbolic means of dealing with a Jewish kid forcibly baptized as a child is, well, it harks back to some seriously scary historical experiences. There are approaches designed to deal with a child regarded as "carried away in captivity". Because what is being threatened here may not be a literal kidnapping but the best analogy we have in our religious lexicon is children being actually forcibly taken from their parents for baptism.

(15th century Spain, for example: Jewish children were kidnapped en masse and baptized without consent, and since it was wrong for "Christian" children to live with Jewish parents, they were sent to Cape Verde, a tiny island in the middle of the Atlantic known at the time as "Crocodile Island". Just the children, no adults. I think probably more of them died of neglect than got eaten by crocodiles, but we don't really know, since there weren't any adults to chronicle what happened to them.)

[rosefox]

Does forced baptism in any way prevent the child from having a fully Jewish life?

I am not a rabbi, ask your local rabbi, etc., but: no, Kol Nidre exists specifically for the purpose of rendering void all forced conversions and vows taken under duress. If it made the parents feel better or their rabbi advised it, they could hold a conversion ceremony for the child, but given the history of forced baptism of orphaned or unwilling Jews, I can't imagine any Jewish community shunning the forcibly baptized child of a Jewish parent.

[azurelunatic]

It's a terrible, wrenching thing to know that if you died, your own parent cannot be trusted to raise your child.

Get the will watertight.

[rosefox]

Yes, if there's any risk of the LW's mother being considered a plausible person to take custody of a future child should something happen to the child's parents, make it clear, in writing, in a legal document drawn up by a lawyer and suitably witnessed, that under NO circumstances should the LW's mother be given custody due to reasons spelled out in detail, and also clearly stipulating who should have custody and why.

A judge can still decide that the LW's mother getting custody is in the child's best interests, but official documents opposing that and explaining why will go a long way.

[rosefox]

Forced baptism is a statement of ownership. It's spiritual kidnapping. This is grotesque and abhorrent and I hope the LW cuts their mother out of their life completely.

Good on the MIL for letting the LW know about the threat.

[staranise]

Spritual kidnapping! I HAVE A NAME FOR IT. Thank you. (complicated personal reasons redacted)