cereta: Val Stone from Stone Soup saying "Please" (Val Stone)
Lucy ([personal profile] cereta) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2023-12-05 12:17 pm
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Carolyn Hax: Life ‘really opened up’ post-divorce — just not for ex-wife and child

Dear Carolyn: Three years ago, I woke up to the fact that I wasn’t happy with my life. The pandemic made me realize there are no guarantees and you have to live your life now. I’d been married five years, right out of college, to my high school sweetheart, and it hit me that I was 27 with a wife and kid and mortgage, living like I was 40, and if I didn’t do something, life was going to pass me by.

As much as it hurt, I left and started over, and I’m so happy now. I have a great apartment, I’m getting noticed at work, I’m dating casually, I’m even planning a three-week trip to South America. Life has really opened up for me.

I wish I could say the same of my ex-wife, but she has just shut down. She moved back in with her folks, which is so sad — she’s never had her own place; she even lived at home during college. From what I can tell, she doesn’t date, even though she’s a young, good-looking woman with a good job and our son is old enough now to leave with a babysitter.

I’ll always love her. I’ve tried reaching out, but she doesn’t respond to any overtures unless it’s about our son. You got a letter recently from someone who didn’t like questions from her ex about her love life. I’m honestly not doing that; I don’t care if she dates, I just want her to have a full life. I’d like to get together with her and talk about what she’s doing and encourage her to want more for herself. Is that out of line?

— Anonymous

Anonymous: You divorced your standing to want things for her. So, yes, out of line.

Apparently, you also left her to do the heavy daily work of living a premature middle age and rearing your son while you went out and got your 20s back. Out of line and in her face.

Over the years, I’ve read letters with some nerve, but this one has some freaking nerve. (That’s two levels up from basic nerve.)

You don’t mention anything about money, and maybe that’s because it isn’t an issue, and maybe that’s because you’re giving her enough in child support and possibly alimony to enable her to move herself and your son out of her parents’ home into quality housing of her own, and she simply has chosen not to do that. If so, then, okay — I’ll back off that part of it.

Anonymous: You divorced your standing to want things for her. So, yes, out of line.

Apparently, you also left her to do the heavy daily work of living a premature middle age and rearing your son while you went out and got your 20s back. Out of line and in her face.

Over the years, I’ve read letters with some nerve, but this one has some freaking nerve. (That’s two levels up from basic nerve.)

You don’t mention anything about money, and maybe that’s because it isn’t an issue, and maybe that’s because you’re giving her enough in child support and possibly alimony to enable her to move herself and your son out of her parents’ home into quality housing of her own, and she simply has chosen not to do that. If so, then, okay — I’ll back off that part of it.

If you do owe her more as a co-parent, then improve her life by stepping up more as a co-parent — not not not by appointing yourself her life coach.

If you already do beyond your share as a co-parent, then trust and accept that as your only appropriate contribution to her prospects in life, which are otherwise now up to her.

Either way, if you ever find yourself “encourag[ing]” her to “want more,” put your fist in your mouth.
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2023-12-05 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep. When I divorced Ex, I did not kid myself that I was doing the best thing for him. (Best thing for me? Heck yes. Best thing for our kid? Absolutely. For Ex? Nope.)
minoanmiss: Nubian girl with dubious facial expression (dubious Nubian girl)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-12-05 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)

Wow did my blood pressure just go up. I am trying really hard not to wish that something wrecks this guys fun and fancy free lifestyle soon and permanently.

adriennefae: (Default)

[personal profile] adriennefae 2023-12-05 06:49 pm (UTC)(link)
So let me get this straight - this guy walked out on his wife and child because staying with them was preventing him from being able to go out and live his life however he wanted, and now he's just utterly baffled that his ex, who is now a single mom, might not be able to just go out and live her life however she wants? Did the kid just stop existing as soon as he was out of LW's line of sight?

Like, it's not clear from the letter what the child support situation is financially, but the way it's written definitely doesn't sound like he has much if any custody (or like he's particularly bothered by that) or does any meaningful amount of parenting. He goes on about how sad it is that she's moved back in with her parents, but they're probably doing more to help with the kid than he is.
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[personal profile] laurajv 2023-12-05 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I felt like I could feel Carolyn typing, and deleting, "I hope you get hit by a truck" three times during this answer.
princessofgeeks: (Default)

[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2023-12-05 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
So much this.
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2023-12-05 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Some people deserve both head and body lice, poison ivy, and erectile dysfunction.
conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2023-12-06 05:56 am (UTC)(link)
And also crabs, which he just might get with his swinging lifestyle! (We can only hope.)
adrian_turtle: (Default)

[personal profile] adrian_turtle 2023-12-05 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)
It's noteworthy that he thinks living with a woman he loves and has loved for years, raising a child together in a home they own, is different from and incompatible with "living his life." That's why he threw her from stability to precarity. Even if he pays a lot of money in child support, her life has been turned upside down.

And if she lived with her parents during college, she might like them. Some people do. She and her parents might be actively enthusiastic about the kid staying with his grandparents while mom is at work.
kiezh: Text: Apparently it was going to be one of those days when people made no sense whatsoever. (mina de malfois says people make no sens)

[personal profile] kiezh 2023-12-05 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
As unpleasant as it was for her to get dumped and rendered a single parent in the middle of a pandemic, in some ways she really dodged a bullet. Imagine if she'd spent the next 20 years loyally married to a man who holds her in such profound contempt. He thought of her as a default option, and then as a cage, and now as a pathetic shut-in. Why in the world does he think she ever wants to hear his opinions about anything, ever again?

The appalling, callous cruelty of "life was going to pass me by" - wow. "Life" didn't include partnership with her or parenting their child. Apparently "life" means dating casually and living alone; these are The Standards by which he judges her life (which he is not part of anymore) and finds it lacking. The idea that she might want different things than he does has not penetrated his skull. Apparently, for all those years she wasted on him*, he wasn't particularly aware of her as a person at all, and doesn't see any reason to change that.

May he never be in a position to betray another woman or child who'd believed they mattered to him.

*Five years married, four years of college, however long they dated in high school? My god, the poor woman.
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2023-12-05 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I was gonna ask what this dude thinks "life" really is, but it seems clear he thinks it means casual sex.

They were together since high school, married right out of college... Wonderful, he feels like his life is lacking because he didn't get years of casual sex opportunities so he walks out on his wife and kid about it. And he's sad the woman he loves (and abandoned with their kid) isn't having casual sex, too.

WTF.

I don't wanna say they could have solved this problem by talking to each other, but if the only problem in your marriage is no casual sex for BOTH of you, there's non monogamous options here.

But dude walked out because of random feelings so good riddance, you better be paying child support, stay out of your ex's life, I don't care how much you "love" her.

Edit: also, old enough to leave with a sitter? HOW OLD IS YOUR KID, DID YOU WALK OUT ON HER AND AN INFANT.
Edited 2023-12-05 19:32 (UTC)
kiezh: Text: Apparently it was going to be one of those days when people made no sense whatsoever. (mina de malfois says people make no sens)

[personal profile] kiezh 2023-12-05 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeeeeeah, that timing sure does suggest that the breaking point for him was when his wife was caught up in infant care (and therefore presumably not dancing attendance on him like she had for something approaching a decade) and HE might even be expected to change diapers or something, oh horrors! The trap of middle-aged life! Gotta run out and prove his virility and coolness right away lest he wither!
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2023-12-05 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)

Like, just, the whole idea that "middle age" = "the time of raising the kids" is so... I don't even know how to say it. But it's not coming out of constant cultural attention to "the biological clock" and "women need to have babies at specific ages".

Dude assumes middle age is the time for babies. Okay. Cool. But you presumably had the baby on purpose???

kiezh: Tree and birds reflected in water. (Default)

[personal profile] kiezh 2023-12-05 10:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, he acts as though wife, child, and mortgage just inexplicably and terribly HAPPENED to him, as if he was not an adult making choices at every turn.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-12-05 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Considering he said their split happened three years ago, and the child is “now” old enough to be left with a sitter, I’d say it’s damn near guaranteed that he walked out of his young infant’s life.
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2023-12-05 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)

Some dude: why did my ex-wife move back in with her parents? it's a deep mystery!

Ex-wife: SOMEONE HAS TO PROVIDE CHILDCARE AND IT'S NOT BEING YOU.

shirou: (cloud)

[personal profile] shirou 2023-12-05 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I find LW incredibly selfish, but I don't believe he thinks "life" is only casual sex. He also talks about having his own apartment, succeeding at work, and travel. Life offers lots of opportunities to try new things that are harder once one has a family and a mortgage.

I work for a company that offers varied assignments including some serious travel, and I encourage younger employees to take advantage of those opportunities while they can. It gets harder as you get older and your responsibilities grow. I am not surprised LW felt he settled down and made commitments too young.

But the fact is, he made those commitments, and the people involved don't just disappear when he tries to extricate himself. He wants to reach out to his ex-wife because he's starting to feel guilty about how his leaving affected her, but he frames any difficulties she is experiencing (which we only have his perspective on) as her problem rather than a consequence of his choice. I feel terrible for the child, who barely gets a mention.
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2023-12-06 12:00 am (UTC)(link)
Yep. I can absolutely understand him feeling trapped by the responsibilities of the commitments he took on, and I can understand the pandemic making him realize he'd made the wrong choices. If there weren't a kid in the picture, I would be more sympathetic (though I'd still agree with Carolyn that he is not the person who can help his ex be happier when the relationship of a decade is ripped out from under her).

But he's got a kid, who he doesn't appear to give a shit about.

Alestorm's "F'ed with an Anchor" is playing in the background right now. Yep, sums up my feelings towards this pitable excuse for an adult.
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[personal profile] ambyr 2023-12-05 07:52 pm (UTC)(link)
The comments when I looked at the WaPo version of this article a few days ago were absolutely full of people saying Carolyn was being insufficiently sympathetic to LW.

Which is why I shouldn’t read the comments, I guess.
conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2023-12-06 05:57 am (UTC)(link)
What.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-12-06 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)

I want to be surprised and am merely grimly horrified. I feel sorry for the families of everyone who thinks LW has a point.

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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-12-05 08:04 pm (UTC)(link)
It’s worth reading Carolyn’s full response because she covers a lot more, including the potential custody aspects. https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2023/12/03/carolyn-hax-ex-post-divorce/
shirou: (cloud 2)

[personal profile] shirou 2023-12-05 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks—her full response is great. I'm copying it below in case anyone can't access it through the paywall. (Is that allowed?)

Anonymous: You divorced your standing to want things for her. So, yes, out of line.

Apparently, you also left her to do the heavy daily work of living a premature middle age and rearing your son while you went out and got your 20s back. Out of line and in her face.

Over the years, I’ve read letters with some nerve, but this one has some freaking nerve. (That’s two levels up from basic nerve.)

You don’t mention anything about money, and maybe that’s because it isn’t an issue, and maybe that’s because you’re giving her enough in child support and possibly alimony to enable her to move herself and your son out of her parents’ home into quality housing of her own, and she simply has chosen not to do that. If so, then, okay — I’ll back off that part of it.

And if you share custody or if she has your son because you tried for but weren’t awarded custody, then I might even lay down a few of my torches and pitchforks.

But even if you didn’t dump all your responsibilities, only your marriage, then there are still layers of omg here, including that you didn’t mention the financial or custodial arrangements at all in your letter lamenting her choices. It’s relevant, no? Whether she can club-hop with Life and spend three weeks overseas while you primary-parent?

And then there’s the ick of condescension. Maybe “sad” to her is what you did, or an apartment for her and kid, and “full” is the life a multigenerational, multi-adult household gives your child. Not that this way or your way or whatever other way is right, just that a narrow mind is wrong. Read what you wrote again and imagine it’s through her eyes this time — then once more, through a friendly disinterested-newspaper-stranger’s eyes. Maybe she thinks the definition of “sad” is to equate a spouse, home and a child to having “life pass me by.”

And then there’s your complete omission — maybe it’s denial? — of how her embracing your vision of “more” would conveniently let you off the guilt hook.

I will go on the record now, as I probably should have a few harrumphant paragraphs ago, with my firm belief that white-knuckling through life in an unhappy marriage is not a virtue. If you were miserable, and if you threw your whole self into trying to fix the marriage only to feel just as stuck, then a choice to leave was valid and arguably necessary.

But how and whom you leave matters — so if you sloughed off all that life weight onto her instead of carrying every ounce of it that you were still responsible for, then you own that, whether she lives happily ever after you or not. Just as you don’t own her struggle anymore if you’re pulling your weight.

Absent these key details, I have to give you two answers:

If you do owe her more as a co-parent, then improve her life by stepping up more as a co-parent — not not not by appointing yourself her life coach.

If you already do beyond your share as a co-parent, then trust and accept that as your only appropriate contribution to her prospects in life, which are otherwise now up to her.

Either way, if you ever find yourself “encourag[ing]” her to “want more,” put your fist in your mouth.
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2023-12-06 12:01 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! I don't have access, so I'm glad to see this further nuance to her answer, especially this part:

I will go on the record now, as I probably should have a few harrumphant paragraphs ago, with my firm belief that white-knuckling through life in an unhappy marriage is not a virtue. If you were miserable, and if you threw your whole self into trying to fix the marriage only to feel just as stuck, then a choice to leave was valid and arguably necessary.

But how and whom you leave matters — so if you sloughed off all that life weight onto her instead of carrying every ounce of it that you were still responsible for, then you own that, whether she lives happily ever after you or not. Just as you don’t own her struggle anymore if you’re pulling your weight.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-12-06 02:01 pm (UTC)(link)

Thank you for putting this here.

conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2023-12-06 05:54 am (UTC)(link)
Oh my good this douche.