agonyaunt | (no subject)

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Dear Care and Feeding,

My sister and I have recently been arguing a lot. We are relatively close but are at different stages of life. I am married with four small kids and a husband, and she is recently divorced (after five years) without children. Now she’s dating again and tells me she’s not interested in having babies (husband or no). That’s fine and I want to support her, but here’s my dilemma. She is clinically depressed. She’s seeing a therapist and is taking medication but will text me things like “I have no joy in my life—what can I do to find some?” I’m not living a perfect life by any means (I recently underwent cancer treatment during a pregnancy while in a pandemic among other things) but I can say I’m pretty content, so I try to offer advice (she did ask, after all) and since my kids tend to bring me the most joy, I naturally have suggested that maybe being a mother would make her happy.

I understand that kids are not everyone’s cup of tea, but she’s not finding happiness in her job, her hobbies, her casual relationships, her friendships, or even her church group. Still, when I mention that babies bring joy, she blows up in anger. She went through a tough year of fertility treatments when she was still married and is convinced that that was enough trying for kids for her. So I’m at a loss as to what to say to help or comfort her at this point. I don’t want to be trite and say, “You’ll find something eventually” but I also don’t have the skills, knowledge, or, frankly, time to try to help her find her bliss. How can I be a supportive sister during her depression without spiraling down a dark hole with her? It feels like all I do is make her mad, which is frustrating. I don’t know what answer she’s looking for, but all of mine are wrong.

—No Answer in Newtown

People who are depressed don’t “find happiness”—not in their jobs, not in their hobbies, not in their relationships, not “even” in church. And not by making babies. And your sister isn’t asking for advice, even if it sounds that way. She’s letting you know—repeatedly, I’m guessing—that she feels awful, hopeless, bleak. She has a therapist who (I sorely hope) has the skills and knowledge to help her, so that’s not what she needs from you. She just needs to know you’re still there. That you love her. “I’m sorry you’re feeling so bad. I feel for you. I love you” would be a much better response than either telling her what will fix her (it won’t) or promising that some vague something will (which you already know won’t). If you’d like more help figuring out how to respond to her, you might take a look at this article on how to talk to someone who is depressed. I know it isn’t easy or uncomplicated to love and support someone who is seriously depressed, but if you care about her, you’ll make time for her when she needs you, and you’ll reassure her that she’s not alone in the world, even if she feels she is. That’s really about the only thing you can assure her of, assuming that it’s true.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/05/mom-feels-like-shes-drowning-care-and-feeding.html

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Wow, LW is such a freaking asshole, I'm amazed her sister even still talks to her.

Based on the headline, I was going for, "You are actually telling someone with depression that they need to get pregnant, that condition so notoriously well known for its stablising effects on people's mental health that it's given rise to PPD ("pregnancy produces dopamine!") and PPP ("pregnancy produces positivity!") as terms to recognise that profound truth." And then I read the body of the ltter and saw She went through a tough year of fertility treatments when she was still married and is convinced that that was enough trying for kids for her.

Personally, I think what would bring this poor woman joy is cutting LW out of her life forever, conceivably with a chain saw.

Word.

I suspect LW might be stuck in that "Babies are everything! Let's talk about children for hours on end!" stage that some particularly oblivious parents bury themselves in without realizing that many people would really rather talk about something else. This is entirely unhelpful (and even offensive) in this situation, and the sister would be entirely in the right to go no contact over it given her circumstances.

What I find so hilarious is that, as absolutely besotted with my baby as I was (miracle baby and all that), during her first year, I was all, "Are you sure you want kids? 'cause it's mostly poop and sleep deprivation at this stage."

JFC, woman, you are telling a woman who is currently struggled with depression and has in the past struggled with infertility to just have a kid, to say nothing of telling her to become a single mother. What is wrong with you?

I don't think the LW quite realises that her sister is not her, and the things which make LW happy do not content her sister...

Right? It’s almost like they’re… separate people! *gasp*

I can’t even with LW’s extraordinary self-involvement.

oh my god lady, stuff a sock in your mouth and stop being an asshole

This is really good, necessarily brutal advice. I'm a person with chronic depression with Overly Helpful friends -- but I'm also and Overly Helpful friend of people with chronic depression. Every word of the advice is true, but it's also really fucking hard to be on the other side of the equation (not as hard, obviously, but not trivial by any means).

I have a hell of a lot more sympathy with LW than I think you all do, if only because "cancer treatment while pregnant" sounds like a nightmare, and "cancer treatment while pregnant while parenting 3 toddlers / small kids during covid" sounds like a living hell. So if LW is carefully doing what they need to keep their shit together, and the depressed sister is texting depression things, I don't blame her for flailing.

And look, speaking as a childfree person with depression who is Flames on the Side of My Face when someone tells me that kids would solve my problems, and speaking with the understanding that those of us with depression sometimes can't make the considerate choice because brain weasels aren't that kind, this is a circles of comfort thing. Unless the depression is at the immediate-risk-to-life-and-limb level (which maybe it is), then "cancer while pregnant" is the comfort-in side of the equation. Maybe sister has nobody else, maybe the depression is at risk of self-harm levels of severity, or maybe the depression is fucking with sister's general empathy. But I still believe in cutting LW some slack here. They're trying to do the right thing.

Personally I've lost people to depression and I've lost more people to cancer. Both cancer and depression are massive assholes and I hate them both. But I hate cancer more.

Edited (pronouns, antecedents) 2021-06-15 00:31 (UTC)

You're not wrong, at all, but I think what -- well, definitely what made me mad was that LW said "babies bring joy" to a woman who has struggled with fertility. It's one thing to decide one will not have children, but it's another thing to try (especially considering the ongoing physical and emotional effort it can be) and not manage to. So after that, being told, "that thing that many people say defines your existence, that you tried to do before your relationship broke up, that I have done successfully several times? try again, try harder to do it by yourself, and that'll fix you." ... I think that would hurt to hear. LW has a very hard row to hoe, and clearly is and has every right to be invested in her children and the concept of children, but I'm not sure it would be that difficult to realize even in her position that that particular advice might not be the most useful.

Maybe LW and Sister need a break from each other until both are doing better.

LW said "babies bring joy" to a woman who has struggled with fertility.

No, you're right, that's 1000% out of line. It seems like they're both in a shitty place and are saying harmful things to the ones they love. I'm trying to have empathy for how much we've all lost the ability to have basic human interaction in the last year, but that's a shitty thing to say.

I feel like you. I think this woman is just terribly emotionally obtuse, rather than deliberately inconsiderate. She just doesn’t know you don’t need to have an answer when someone brings you their problems, and that’s how she sees depression--as a problem that she is being asked to solve by her sister because that’s exactly how LW stated it in this letter. For her it's a loving response. If it weren’t ,she’d be presenting us with defensive stories to cover up what she is saying here directly. I don’t think she’s telling her sister to have babies because she thinks her sister is herself--she just doesn’t know what brings happiness for other people or how they tick, and so she’s offering what she knows. I wouldn’t blame her sister for not understanding her sister is not trying to hurt her in anyway and wanting to cut her out, but I hope she does understand and knows how many bricks thick her sister is in the emotions department bu now. LW should have caught on that you don’t tell someone who has had trouble with fertility treatments that she should have babies, but her sister should know how emotionally thick LW is by this point, too. Maybe she is on the spectrum and not neurotypical. Anyway, I thought the answer was direct, to the point, and not at all brutal, which is the best kind of advice for LW to get, that you don’t have to have an answer, just listen and let your sister know she’s loved. I think everyone needs to be reminded of that from time to time, no matter how empathic they may be.

i really appreciate this viewpoint.

also, as someone who's been asked "have you tried yoga?" as much as the next guy (and hates it as much as the next guy), i can't help but notice that the sister is asking: “I have no joy in my life—what can I do to find some?”

i know there's guess culture and ask culture; maybe the sister is asking and means it in a rhetorical, don't-answer type of way and expects that to be recognized -- which can be totally reasonable, within intimacy. but i would be far less steamy if someone asked me whether i'd tried yoga in response to me asking "what can i do?"

@ LW: YIKES

When one is depressed, often the only thing that will not enrage you is total agreement that everything is terrible and there's no brighter side to be found. But someone on LW's situation (recent cancer survivor, caregiver of several small children) whose sanity might depend on convincing herself IT'S ALL WORTH IT AND REWARDING, might not be the ideal option to vent. Both would be better off if sister sticks to professional advise, and LW refrains from advising at all.

I read a line in some random article about childfree somewhere that quoted multiple parents as saying, more or less, "Children bring so much joy into your life! And they do it while forcing you to cut out literally everything else in your life that brings you joy." It really stuck with me.

I'm sure that's more true for some people than others, but it sounds like it has been for LW - it's basically what she's struggling with in this letter, rephrased. She can't respond to her sister because she doesn't have space in her life for any joys other than her kids. LW, if she really is reaching out to you in a way that requires a direct answer, talking about it more like "with raising my kids through this awful year, I haven't had time to find any joys other than parenting, but here are some things I miss from before I was a parent" might help.

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