agonyaunt | Care & Feeding: My Partner's Son's Girlfriend's Kids ...

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Care & Feeding: My Partner's Son's Girlfriend's Kids ...

My partner moved in with me during the pandemic. She has two adult sons, both of whom were living overseas when we got together. Her son, “Zach,” has recently moved back to the States, is now living in our guest room, and is currently looking for a full-time job. He is fine. His current girlfriend is not. I hesitate to call her a single parent because I haven’t seen her parent her kids. They scream at the top of their lungs, hit each other, and get into fights over everything. They don’t wash their hands, cover their mouths, or bother to flush the toilet when they are done. “Please” and “thank you” might as well be foreign words. Their mother’s answer is to throw a tablet at them until they shut up. Whenever my partner or I try to intervene like separating the fighting kids into separate rooms, coaching them to clean up after themselves, or turning off YouTube, she perks up and tells us not to parent her kids.

Recently, we had company over and used the firepit I had in the backyard. The 8-year-old kept trying to toss random trash into the fire. No matter how many times I told him to stop, he would ignore me and start up again. The last time he tried, I grabbed his hand and forced him to dump the trash on the ground. So he bit me. I don’t have kids, but my grandniece is a toddler and she understands this is unacceptable. His mother was polishing down another beer when I went up to her. I explained what happened, and she started to rant about how I can’t touch her kid, I can’t talk to her kid, and screw me for telling her how to raise them. So I told her to get the hell out of my house. It caused a scene where Zach had to drive his girlfriend and her kids home because it was obvious that she was too drunk to. Zach apologized, but I told him that his girlfriend and her kids were no longer welcome in my house. He could go visit her instead.

This sparked a fight with Zach and his mother. They feel I am acting like an overbearing ass, and I am quick to remind them, “my house, my rules.” Zach is perfectly welcome to move out into his own place or in with his girlfriend. Everything is tense. My partner agrees that the kids are out of control and their mother doesn’t do anything about it, but she says I “escalated” things. We have been trying the soft pedal approach. It has gotten us nowhere. I love her, but it is crazy to expect us to tolerate this behavior in our own home. Zach is pretty far gone on his girlfriend, and I know my partner is wary of pushing it, but come on. I need an outside perspective here, please.

—Crazy Kids

Dear Crazy Kids,

It sounds like your partner wants the house to be a comfortable place for her son and his girlfriend’s children, regardless of what it costs you. Talk to your partner first and let her know that the last thing you’d want is to cause drama with her son, but explain to her why what his girlfriend’s kid did was so dangerous. Let her know that you have been as patient and understanding as you can be, but that it’s simply obvious that this woman won’t step up and adequately parent her children. Ask her to back you up when it comes to talking to her son; bring up some of the kids’ other noteworthy shenanigans to remind him just what you are dealing with. Let him know that if there’s a marked difference in these children’s behavior, they can be welcome in your home again. Stick to your guns and don’t let either of them convince you that you have to open your doors to kids who don’t respect you.

—Jamilah

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Why is Jamilah phoning it in these days?

Setting aside LW's attitude, because I can see growing resentful of someone causing one so much trouble, this advice would fit except for one little detail Jamilah seems to have missed -- LW grabbed the kid's hand. Unless absolutely necessary one does not lay hands on people without their permission and doubly so for children! At that point LW did escalate the situation. If he'd just gone to the mother before grabbing the kid I'd adjudge him totally in the right but I absolutely can't side with him now.

I'm going to disagree only because the child was about to throw trash into an open fire, and was not listening when told to stop. In that immediate moment, I would file that under "absolutely necessary." If LW squeezed more tightly than necessary or caused actual pain, I would change my view, but this, to me, falls under "child is about to touch a red-hot stove coil" rules. Admittedly, I probably wouldn't have had my fire pit lit if I knew ill-behaved children that young were going to be there, and the parent could not be relied upon to see to their safety.

That last point to me is what makes the question of whether the LW escalated or not moot. I wouldn't be forbidding the children from coming to my house because one bit me (well, that, too, but it wouldn't be the primary issue). I would be forbidding them from coming to my house because I (a) cannot rely on their parent to see to their safety, and (b) have been forbidden from doing anything about it myself.

This.

I guess I should clarify -- I definitely think LW has the right to ban the girlfriend and her children from his house. But having a fire in the firepit was either an attractive nusiance around such badly behaved children (non-legal meaning) or not particularly dangerous. I still don't think LW was right in grabbing the kid unless there were extenuating circumstances (in which case why is there a fire in the first place)

I would agree that LW probably shouldn't have had the firepit going (or, ideally, shouldn't have had GF and her kids to whatever the gathering was). But I had a neighbor who decided that the way to get rid of excess trash (besides putting it in our bins) was to burn it,* so I've seen how seemingly "harmless" trash like paper towels can get away from a contained fire. I do believe that putting hands on anyone past the age of about three should be an absolute last resort, but in LW's shoes, I might well have done it.

*Have I mentioned how very, very happy I am not to be living there anymore?

That used to be a common, dangerous, and officially-warned-against method of trash disposal in Jamaica when I was a kid. I do totally know what you mean about the dangers of that method.

I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad you're not there anymore, omg.

I think everyone here thinks I'm trying to justify the kid's bad behavior and his mother's lack of care. I'm not! I just think that for too long our society has held children's bodily autonomy as best as a privilege to be revoked as a punishment and at worst as nonexistent. And also it gives the mother ammunition to claim that LW was "dragging my kid all over the back yard" or whatever. But I'm already getting a drubbing so I probably shouldn't even get into those.

"...trying to justify... his mother's lack of care"

Pssht. Do not. You're just focusing on an aspect I (we?) didn't.

Thank you for reminding me. tries to breathe

I don't think in any way, shape, or form you're justifying the kids' or GF's behavior. I just disagree that LW's action in grabbing the kid's hand is an "escalation." And I get your objection, I do, but you know, if the person in question had been an inebriated adult, and they were about to throw something into the fire no matter how many people told them to stop, I would probably at the very least have grabbed the item. Now, granted, I have the kind of weird "privilege" of being a very little woman (and the real privilege of being white), so I doubt anyone would accuse me of physical bullying or intimidation for doing so.

I'm usually not okay with people grabbing people, whether the people being grabbed are adults or children,

but I make an exception for genuine safety issues.

If

a) LW was genuinely concerned the kid was going to burn their hand tossing the rubbish in; or

b) the rubbish was extremely flammable, like an aerosol can; or

c) the rubbish was something that releases highly toxic carcinogenic fumes, like plastic rubbish

then I am okay with the grabbing, especially after multiple attempts to stop the behaviour verbally.

But if the rubbish was something safe like paper tissues, paper, twigs, woodchips, marshmallows etc etc and LW didn't genuinely think there was a danger of the kid burning their hand, then I am not okay with the grabbing.

The other big safety issue with lightweight trash such as tissues, paper, twigs, etc in outdoor fires is wind. In the wind these things can fly out of the fire and set fire to other things or burn people because they are so small and lightweight, and this is part of why it isn't legal to burn them in your yard in many places. Even if the risk wasn't particularly high because of the weather at the time, I think physical intervention was still legitimate on the principle of basic fire safety rules, which are extremely important, IMO, on a level with rules about going into the street, which similarly render it appropriate to physically restrain a child.

I agree that if the "grabbing" was punitive instead of restraining, and if the child was hurt, it crossed a line, and I think it is likely that the children have not actually been taught fire safety in any meaningful way - it sounds like they don't understand why it could be important and also don't understand why they should listen or pay attention to other adults. That is the mother's responsibility and it isn't something LW is able to really correct though, since they aren't even really a grandparent (and even as a step-grandparent, getting through to children of the age and habits described would likely be very hard).

And even throwing heavy things or perfectly ok kindling on the fire can cause the fire to shift or collapse in a way that's dangerous and might send burning stuff out of the fire circle.

There are (relatively) safe ways to burn trash on a fire, but regardless, the #1 rule of fire safety is that people who aren't trained in fire safety listen to people who are (and even people who are trained in fire safety listen to the person who's in charge of the fire.) If someone is breaking that rule they need to be removed from the fire area - and if you have exhausted all methods but removing them bodily, you do that. It's not a situation where you can safely let them throw a tantrum until they're ready to stop on their own.

A child who has repeatedly ignored instructions not to throw things in an open fire and continues to do so can be grabbed by the hand and removed from the fire and required to drop the thing they were about to throw in a fire.

This is not a beating. This is not unreasonable. This is stopping an 8-year-old from setting things on fire.

So seems to be the consensus.

Among other reasons, I think that refraining from grabbing the child also protects LW -- now the mother can spin this as his being a horrible ogre who corporally punishes unrelated children, even though that's absolutely not what happened. I just think it was a bad idea for him to do that for his sake and the kid's sake, and I think I can say that without excusing the child's behavior.

Edited 2025-03-04 19:20 (UTC)

Yeah, like, I can side with him on some aspects *but also* think he escalated by grabbing the kid's hand. He is in the wrong there; he should've had a talk about fire safety and kicked the kid out before it went that far.

Yes, sir, *be* The Bad Guy.

I actually agree with you! Kids have less and less rights these days and it drives me wild. There's other things that give me pause here, but "polishing down another beer" really got me because, like, god that is a normal thing this woman can do! Especially during a bonfire! This is a time honored tradition since the beginning of time.

I am projecting here, but a part of me worries that boyfriend's mom prefers a more authoritarian type of parenting, while the girlfriend much prefers a more gentle approach. Maybe I'm reading way too far into this. Its just weird.

LW and any host is free to have rules about cleaning up after oneself in their home - you can just not invite people, disinvite them or ask them to leave, and if the poor behavior is from children it's completely reasonable to remind them to flush the toilet and wash their hands and to ask them to keep their voices down, for example. All of these are requests that the child be courteous to the host and the people around them, and the mother is mistaken in categorizing them as "parenting her children". Yes, it's her resonsibility to tell them these things, but that's because the parent is responsible for her children's behavior. LW would be within their rights to explain to HER that people are not welcome in their house who don't flush the toilet and wash their hands afterwards, or not welcome to eat in their house without washing their hands first, or not welcome to make the room too uncomfortable for other people to be in, and then expect her to enforce this on the children instead. Or to address themselves to her instead of to the children in the moment of each infraction ("Alice, Billy hasn't washed his hands and he isn't welcome at the table until he has." "Alice, I'm afraid the children are being too loud again - if they can't calm down, you could ask them to go outside perhaps.") Perhaps the mother would prefer this, but I think it sounds like she actually just wants the host to let her do whatever she wants in their house and... uh... that isn't reasonable at all. And not how going to other people's houses works, even if the people in question are your in-laws.

I agree, and I feel like we're in a cultural moment where "parenting someone else's children" has gotten applied to most interactions between adults and children, to the detriment of everyone, I feel. Among other things, a lot of smaller children have very short attention spans, so if you have to run to fetch a parent to say "no" when the kid is doing something destructive, the link between the action and the reprimand will be substantially lost. It's fine to say "don't play in the fire, kiddo."

This is absolutely true, and so it's interesting to see it stated as a contested postulate.

It's really unclear to me what the situation *is* here with GF's family. Are they "company"? In that case it's absolutely valid to expect company manners and GF is 100% in the wrong for accusing LW of "parenting her children", but also, they ought not to have been invited to a fire pit event. Have they more or less moved in with Stepson, think of it as a second home, and come and go all the time? In that case they aren't going to expect to be on company manners and he may not have had the option of keeping them away from the firepit, but also, he needs to have discussed things with his wife set firm boundaries with Stepson and GF about what the rules are for living in their house a long time before now.

Do LW, Wife, Stepson, and Girlfriend all have completely different ideas as to what their guesting status was? Seems very likely.

This is true, but I cannot agree that washing your hands before meals and not yelling loudly when other people in the room have indicated discomfort are "company manners".

If you are at home among your family, it's up to your family where the line is (especially for young kids.) Kids need screaming time *sometimes* and if "outside" or "in your own room" aren't possible, well, it's up to parents to decide on the compromise. (Honestly, I need screaming time sometimes!) And at home, handwashing and toilet flushing really does fall under let me parent my own kids - if I was visiting someone else's house, I might think it was gross that they didn't all wash their hands before lunch, but I wouldn't criticize their kids for, it either, and a lot of that stuff can be about choosing your battles.

If they're "at home" when they're at LW's house, there's discussions to be had and compromises to be made about to what extent they need the freedom to make their own choices in their own home, and at what point they need to agree to shared standards with the other people to live there and how to be consistent about them with the kids. Critically, they're discussions best had with the adults as a group, not by LW snapping at the kids.

However if LW's house isn't their home they should be always flushing toilets - with Mom checking if they don't - and being removed from the house when unwilling to stop screaming, no discussion needed.

Talk to your partner first and let her know that the last thing you’d want is to cause drama with her son, but explain to her why what his girlfriend’s kid did was so dangerous. Let her know that you have been as patient and understanding as you can be, but that it’s simply obvious that this woman won’t step up and adequately parent her children.

This is solid advice. Zach's GF is responsible for her children's behaviour. The GF's failure to parent her children caused a potentially dangerous situation that forced LW to physically intervene (grab the son's hand) before it got worse, because throwing trash on an open fire is dangerous. Since Zach's GF does not want LW or anyone else to step in, banning them from LW's house is the only option here.

(And I disagree that LW should not have used the firepit. GF should have been parenting her kids full stop, not drinking beer with others.)

Edited 2025-03-04 16:53 (UTC)

I think I should not have used the phrase "can't side with LW here" because I seem to have given the impression that I'm excusing the mother's carelessness and horrible guest behavior. I'm not at all. I actually think LW should have kicked them out when he saw her allowing her kid to throw things into the fire, before he felt it necessary to grab the kid. However

GF should have been parenting her kids full stop, not drinking beer with others

she absolutely should have been but by then LW knew she wouldn't, which kind of allows her to hold LW and his firepit hostage using her and her children's bad behavior. It's not fair that he can't use his firepit around her, but I think it was not a good idea to use his firepit around her knowing how terribly she and her children behave.

she absolutely should have been but by then LW knew she wouldn't, which kind of allows her to hold LW and his firepit hostage using her and her children's bad behavior.

Exactly. And that behaviour and attitude is unacceptable to me. I've never understood that concept, that people should be forced into giving up things they enjoy, just so others can continue to behave badly around them.

I think it was not a good idea to use his firepit around her knowing how terribly she and her children behave.

I do think LW called GF's bluff here a bit, but I also think it was well within their right to do so. The firepit was (presumably) monitored, so it would be safe if everyone behaved appropriately around it. LW told GF's kid several times not to throw trash into the fire, with good reason. Other commenters have already covered why it's a bad idea to throw anything in (from toxic fumes, to spreading sparks and embers, to literal explosions if the trash was aerosol cans). We don't know what piece of trash prompted LW to grab GF's kid's hand, but LW should not have had to do it in the first place. LW would have been held responsible if anyone got injured due to the kid's actions, even though GF is responsible for parenting her children.

I've never understood that concept, that people should be forced into giving up things they enjoy, just so others can continue to behave badly around them.

... I don't know how to respond to this without seeming to validate the implication that because I think LW should not have grabbed this child that I think the children or their mother are blameless or justified in their manifestly horrible behavior. I think LW was absolutely in the right to throw them all out of his house, not least because they were endangering it by throwing things into the firepit.

I don't know how to respond to this without seeming to validate the implication that because I think LW should not have grabbed this child that I think the children or their mother are blameless or justified in their manifestly horrible behavior.

I honestly don't think you're implying that at all. But I don't know what LW could reasonably have done in the moment, other than grabbing GF's son's hand to make him stop, given the safety risk to the child. Up to that point, GF's kids' behaviour and manners at LW's house were obnoxious, but not dangerous. To me, trying to throw trash into the fire was dangerous and needed to be stopped.

(And I disagree that LW should not have used the firepit. GF should have been parenting her kids full stop, not drinking beer with others.)

I agree with that in theory. But since LW knows she won't be parenting her kids, pragmatically, their options are don't invite them or don't light the pit.

It kind of sounds like "Don't invite them" wasn't an option. Either they've just been coming and going on their own without worrying about invites, or asking the rest of the family to disinvite them would have caused the same level of problem that inviting them did.

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