(no subject)

[conuly]

Dear Care and Feeding,

My teenage niece, Liza, is a kid who’s been through some tough times. She was removed from my brother’s home by child protective services when she was 8, and now lives with my husband (we also have a baby) and me. She is a wonderful kid in so many ways—kind, smart, driven—but is holding a decidedly unkind grudge against our dog, and we are at a loss as to what to do.

We got the dog 5 years ago, when Liza was 11 and admittedly, we didn’t handle it in the best way possible. We knew that my niece wanted a dog, so we thought she’d be excited too, but we did not adequately consult her as to which one. The dog also isn’t perfect (barking, peeing, some of which has improved with training). My niece has held the most epic grudge against this dog, perhaps because she feels like she wasn’t consulted, or maybe the dog has become a vessel for all of her feelings of sadness and fear of not having a family after what happened to her. We have tried to empathize with her feelings while also drawing limits on her behavior: no kicking or pretending to kick the dog and no, we are not abandoning the dog at a shelter, as she has suggested. We’ve tried simply letting her feelings be. We’ve tried talking to her about the root cause of her anger and offering to do a group session with her therapist. We’ve tried telling her she can pick a dog trainer. We even, in a moment of desperation, tried having the dog stay with my sister for a while; that didn’t work, as she complained about the dog just as often and even refused to go over to my sister’s house several times because of him (at great personal cost, as my niece loves my sister!)

This is about more than just a dog. When it comes to those underlying feelings, we talk to her about my brother (now deceased), and she has a great therapist. And we have made clear in every way that we love her, consider her a part of the family, and would like to adopt her if she’s open to it. We have a great relationship with her otherwise. But if anything, her dog grudge has escalated, and at a certain point (she’s 16 now), it has become pretty cruel (not to mention self-destructive) for her to carry these feelings against a poor dog, who is frankly pretty afraid of her.

—Dog Tired

Dear Dog Tired,

I may be getting chewed up in the comments for this one, I fear. But I think you need to rehome this dog or, at the very least, see if someone will foster her until Liza leaves your house. You absolutely should have consulted a young girl about what kind of dog you were bringing in the house, and you ended up getting one that she hates. Considering all that she has been through, I think it’s completely unfair that you’ve subjected her to five years with a dog that makes her so unhappy. It’s possible that her issues with the dog are a manifestation of her angst over her experiences, but it could just be that you got a breed of dog that she’s not compatible with. You want her to consider being adopted by you, but you haven’t prioritized her over this animal. A dog should fit in with an entire family and her feelings have been completely disregarded for a pup. I do think a group session with her therapist could be helpful to better understand exactly what her issue is with the dog, but I honestly think that her contempt for her is enough to let her go. Would you keep a dog for five years if your biological child hated it? I think that’s something to consider. Please, prioritize Liza’s feelings and get another dog. There are plenty of loving people willing to adopt a dog that needs a home. She will be fine, Liza may not.

—Jamilah

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Comments

[conuly]

Jamilah thinks she'll get eviscerated in the comments, but no, when I checked those comments are nearly 100% rehome the dog.

This situation is unfair to Liza, who deserves to come first in her own home, and it's also unfair to this dog, who deserves to live without being afraid in its own home.

And it's been unfair from the very start, because you cannot bring a new animal into the home without the consent of all the humans who already live in the home. Liza doesn't feel like she wasn't consulted, that's the damn truth! And when she gave her opinion, she was told that she was the problem. Liza isn't the problem and the dog isn't the problem - LW's stubbornness on this issue is the problem and it will continue to be a problem, I think, even if they give in, because there's no way this is the one and only thing.

[cimorene]

This is awful for Liza, but it's actually kind of low level torture for this poor dog. And what kind of person fully adopts an entire dog without consulting their 11 year old? How did that even go down in the first place? It sounds absolutely bonkers.

[conuly]

When we adopted our chihuahua, the shelter was impressed and actually told us that most people do not bring their kids when they adopt the dog. (We didn't tell them that the second kid was a friend and that my older nibling had decided not to come. We did ask them! Repeatedly! But they assured us they'd be fine with their sister's choice.)

We were getting the dog specifically for the younger niece, so we were a little baffled at the suggestion that some people get a dog for a child without bringing that child along to pick the dog out.

We didn't bring the kids to sign the adoption papers for the poodle, but that's because we were the ones who'd brought him to the shelter in the first darn place.

[ysobel]

We were getting the dog specifically for the younger niece, so we were a little baffled at the suggestion that some people get a dog for a child without bringing that child along to pick the dog out.

Some people think dogs are interchangeable -- that the differences are purely aesthetic. Like picking out silverware. It's for eating, nothing else really matters except for looks.

Of course, realistically there are differences between dog breeds (someone wanting a lab-type dog won't be happy with a yorkiepoo) and between individuals (someone wanting a chill dog won't be happy with a nervous wreck).

[conuly]

It's so weird.

Also weird about the silverware. Lots of things matter besides the looks, like how heavy it is and also, weirdly, how durable - I've had silverware that was so cheap it bent when a kid used it too roughly, and do not ask me how that happens.

[adrian_turtle]

I suspect part of the problem might be that LW believes (or believed 5 years ago) that all dogs are more or less the same, so "kid said she wanted a dog" was enough to convince her the kid agreed to any dog. And I have absolutely seen people double down on their biological kids or spouses or parents.* "But you SAID you wanted a dog! We made a commitment to a poor helpless animal based on what you said."

[purlewe]

Yeah it is clear here that LW believes dogs are interchangeable. And that just isn't true.

[conuly]

Hell, even if Liza had been consulted, like for real, it's entirely possible that she would've thought "Yes, I really would like this dog!" and then when confronted with the reality of the dog realized that no, she did not. It's a thing that happens, and while it certainly isn't ideal it's not like returning a baby to the cabbage patch - you can rehome the animal without incurring too much of a moral penalty so long as you don't do it habitually.

[purlewe]

Also very true. There are times we change our mind. Or the situation changes and you have to do the best for yourself, the family/kid, and the animal. And right now none of that is happening.

[movingfinger]

My parents never, ever asked us what we wanted for pets! They just decided, we were put in the car and driven somewhere, and a dog or cat became part of the family.

My suspicion here is that Liza is going to keep grinding about the dog no matter where the dog is, because it works. She needs a good counselor and has for some time. She is 16 and old enough to understand how to treat animals, even animals she doesn't personally adore.

[ashbet]

Liza has been unhappy about this for 5 years (1/3 of her short life!)

She and THIS dog are a terrible fit, neither of them is happy, and while I absolutely support being responsible and committing to your pets, this has been a problem since the day the dog came home.

Taking the time to find a good foster family or home is fine, but I think that both Liza and the dog will be much better off if they are separated.

Liza does deserve to feel comfortable and wanted in her own home (especially with the circumstances under which she came there), and it feels like the LW has been prioritizing the dog over the unhappiness of a child who has already been through a lot.

[topaz_eyes]

I disagree with Jamilah's advice here: Please, prioritize Liza’s feelings and get another dog.

At this point, after 5 years of resentment, LW needs to ask Liza if she even *wants* another dog at all. Then LW *needs to listen to Liza.* And then there's this:

We have tried to empathize with her feelings while also drawing limits on her behavior: no kicking or pretending to kick the dog and no, we are not abandoning the dog at a shelter, as she has suggested.

Liza has been outright abusive to the dog. And it might connect back to the situation that caused her to be removed from her father's home in the first place. There's a lot more here going on than LW is saying.

[mrissa]

Oh good, we simultaneously posted. Yeah, bringing another dog (or any other animal) into this situation without addressing the larger behavior is a terrible idea, absolutely agreed.

[conuly]

There's a lot more here going on than LW is saying.

Oh yes.

[movingfinger]

I would not allow Liza to have any pet until she has worked on her emotional regulation and demonstrated that she can control her impulses around any animal, whether or not she personally likes it. No pets for this family, therefore.

[topaz_eyes]

I completely agree with you, LW must not introduce any other pet to the family unless/until Liza and the family have addressed the deeper issues.

And I completely disagree with Jamilah's last statement: [The dog] will be fine, Liza may not. That poor dog is not going to be fine after 5 years of physical and emotional abuse.

[castiron]

I would also not leave her with the baby unsupervised.

[conuly]

On the other hand, we're taking all this at the word of somebody who, at the very least, has made the same shitty decision over and over again for five years, and can't even justify it. They've set the dog up for abuse and also neglected it, they've failed to prioritize their niece - maybe they've also left some pertinent details from this letter such as "the dog bares its teeth at her all the time, that's how we know it's afraid of her". In which case, physical aggression is still not the answer but it's a lot more understandable without necessarily assuming this girl will then act out and hurt the baby.

[castiron]

Sure, it's likely that we're missing details, and I agree that the LW is not a reliable narrator (and should have rehomed the dog as soon as it was clear that dog and Liza weren't compatible).

With the information that we have in the letter -- Liza doesn't want the dog around, and has been physically aggressive towards it -- and no word from LW on whether Liza thinks the new baby is great or is displacing her in LW's life? Yeah, I'm erring towards caution.

[minoanmiss]

? I didn't like dogs as a child but I was a good babysitter. I don't see the connection here.

[mrissa]

I agree on the rehoming of the dog, but isn't anyone else concerned about the fact that they had to tell this kid not to kick or pretend to kick the dog? Eleven is not random toddler flailing. Eleven is old enough to know what you're doing when you kick another living being. Absolutely the dog deserves a safe place to live and that should be attended to first, but "group therapy to understand why" does not fully cover my level of concern about the behaviors displayed and how they should be addressed once the dog is removed to safety and not an immediate flashpoint.

[conuly]

The fact that she - at least at eleven, it's not clear if she still does this now - was kicking or pretending to kick the dog certainly is concerning and another reason the poor animal needs to be rehomed.

[torachan]

Yeah, I mean. Liza very clearly had a hard early childhood, but this is not normal and needs to be dealt with even if they rehome the dog. Even if she didn't kick the dog, being that angry at a dog for five years is not normal. She is not a little kid, she is nearly an adult. She has anger management issues, not just dog issues.

[minoanmiss]

I dunno. As Feldman asks below, "whose things get peed on?" I can see the day in day out annoyance of dealing with a dog she doesn't want in her life building up more resentment, not less. But I'm not convinced that alone means she has eneralized anger issues, tor that resenting the dog makes her a danger to the baby.

[melannen]

I am going to go a little bit against the grain and say definitely check with the therapist first, because given her history it's possible that "abandoning the dog at a shelter" would set off all her insecurities about whether you would do that to her if the baby wanted her gone - some of this may be an ongoing test to see how conditional her welcome in your home really is.

But six years is a very long time for you to have forced Liza to live with a dog she didn't want and doesn't get on with that barks and pees everywhere and is scared of her, so if you consult with Liza and the therapist, and if they both agree this is a good idea, then you 100% pick Liza over the dog! (Also tbh it doesn't sound like you two really like the dog that much either?) You should involve her in every step of finding the dog a new home in the way you didn't involve her in getting it and keeping it, though, so it doesn't feel like the two of you are kicking the dog out but like the family is doing something they agreed on together.

"The thing about 'transference' is that it's close but no cigar," Freud, probably

[feldman]

Whose things get peed on? How tolerant was/is Liza to loud noises? Who's responsible for piss clean-up and pet care, and how has that changed with the new baby around? It's difficult to live with loud, urinous behavior from roomies even if you love them and chose it (my elderly parents come to mind).

Unsurprising that respite from the dog "for a while" didn't stop the complaints; the problem wasn't resolved, and came with having to refuse more than once to visit it. Why do you still hate your job, you had all weekend and work only bugged you a couple times!

So far they've tried everything! Ignoring her concerns. Declaring half-measures good enough. Negotiating about her behavior (absolutely the dog shouldn't be kicked or threatened; but is she able to reduce her exposure to the dog, or limit her responsibility for it?). Lastly, they've tried defining the real problem as Liza's emotions.

But by emotions they don't mean annoyance and disregard, they mean the trauma of "not having a family". Though she's lived with them for the second half of her life so far, they don't know if she'd "be open to being adopted" in the last 18mos she's got left of high school, so I'm not even sure if they mean losing her abusive natal family, or being kept at a distance since. LW, who do you see as your first child?

Lastly, why is rehoming the dog not an option? "Tolerate this nuisance you've been assigned" vs. "Abandon it" may indeed resonate emotionally (eyes LW), but do you think Liza's taking that dog with her when she moves out?

[movingfinger]

Liza may have a "great therapist," but this behavior persisting suggests otherwise. This is parade of red flags stuff, especially with a baby in the house. She is entrenched in taking out hostility on weaker creatures and that's bad.