Two letters on boundaries from the same column

[conuly]

1. This first letter was posted here after being printed in a different column

Dear Prudence,

Kelly, Susan, Stacy, and I have been friends since we shared a suite in college. I’m Nigerian and Kelly is Japanese; Susan and Stacy are white. Lately, this has led to a big disconnect in how they believe Kelly and I should resolve problems with our families. They are very comfortable with just cutting family members off and/or issuing boundaries and then cutting people off, which is basically anathema to the closely knit immigrant communities and family-based cultures Kelly and I grew up in, but they don’t understand why we won’t just “hold our parents accountable” for our childhood trauma, even though we’ve explained that it really wouldn’t make sense to them.

For example, my mother remarried less than a year after my father died, and Susan’s father also remarried shortly after her parents got divorced. But I know my mother felt pressured to do so by her relatives, and she was alone with a child just two years after immigrating to a new country, so I can understand why she believed it was the safest choice for us (even though I was very angry about it at the time). Susan thinks I should have reduced contact with my mother, the way she did with her dad and stepmother when she turned 18, and she and Stacy have similarly urged Kelly to set boundaries with her parents whenever she’s vented about them. Kelly and I have both explained that we understand where they’re coming from, but that this logic would make no sense to our parents, who grew up in multi-generational, impoverished households. We both feel confident that we won’t replicate our parents’ behavior with our future children, but that doesn’t mean we want them out of our lives, or that we won’t provide for them after seeing how many sacrifices they’ve made for us. It’s gotten to the point where we can’t even bring up family issues without hearing speeches about how we need to break free of our oppressive cultures and parents. How can we get it through to our friends that their methods of dealing with white upper middle-class family members don’t translate to our African and Asian immigrant families? It’s getting seriously frustrating.

—Aggrieved By Advice

Dear Aggrieved,

Here’s an example of how the conversation could go:

You: I have to return my mom’s call before we go out.
Roommate: No you don’t! Set a boundary! She’s made so many bad choices that have hurt you!
You: I know you’re saying that because you care about me and want to protect me, but every culture and every family is different. What might work for you won’t work for me. I want us to continue to be close as roommates and talk about our lives but since I’m happy with my relationship with my mom, I’d just appreciate it if you didn’t pressure me to change it.

If you feel like your friendship is going to be a lasting one, it’s definitely worth having a more detailed conversation about your cultural values around family, where they come from, and what they mean to you. Someone who is going to be an important part of your life for the rest of your college years and beyond should want to understand that rather than trying to reshape your life to look like theirs.

2. Dear Prudence,

I am from a large family—two brothers and four sisters. I am the only one that didn’t immediately get married and pop out babies after college and it left a great division between me and the rest of my family. I am the only one that seems to make an effort here. I call them. They don’t call me. I visit them. They don’t visit me.

When I do visit I am either auntie-the-free-babysitter or sad-single-sister-who-can’t-settle-down. The pandemic put an end to my even trying. Between two moves, a new house, and a new job I had enough on my hands. I have two nieces I haven’t even met in person. I keep up with everyone on social media and the effort just leaves me feeling numb and depressed. But I am still terrified about going no contact.

What should I do? Bringing the topic up either gets me called crazy or selfish. Several years ago, I landed a huge promotion and in my excitement, I called my mom and told her she will never guess what happened to me. She jumped right into thinking I was pregnant. And was obviously disappointed when I said “No, I got the job.” When this upset me, everyone in the family shut me down and told me it was a natural response from my mom and I was making a mountain out of a molehill.

—Black Sheep

Dear Black Sheep,

Going no contact is an option that will always be available to you, but let’s not jump to that right away. Don’t get me wrong, your family sounds pretty disappointing. But before you cut them off, I’d like for you to think about how your ideal relationship would look—how much time you’d like to spend together, what activities you’d like to do, how much babysitting you will (not) be available for, the kinds of comments you don’t want to hear. Then, make that clear to them and see whether they can fall in line. It might also be helpful to think of them as individual people with their own personalities and life circumstances rather than one big unit that’s completely against you. For example, do you have an aunt who you’d like to talk to on the phone once a month (but never about anyone’s babies including the ones you might or might not have in the future)? Do you want your mom to celebrate your professional achievements with you? Do you want your siblings to stop running out the door for date night whenever you set foot in their homes? How about an annual trip with them with no kids? Do you want your nieces and nephews to know you as the fun, cool aunt? Would you like their parents to tell you what their interests are so you can start to form your own relationship with them?

Whatever it is, tell people individually what you need. Give them a chance. And offer your siblings a little grace (or, if it feels better, pity them a bit!). Their “pop out babies” lifestyle may be what they chose, but it likely means they’re exhausted, flustered, and perhaps at times even a little envious of the life you’ve been able to create for yourself. I think there’s a way that you can salvage these connections, but as the person who wants everyone to behave and think differently than they have up until this point, you will need to be the one to lead the way.

Link

Comments

[minoanmiss]

I liek the advice for #1 a bit better. I’m not sure if the advice for #2 is victimblamey or not

[cereta]

I don't think it's victim-blamey, but I think it misses a key point: LW is already the one doing all the work in these relationships, and is exhausted by it. Suggesting things will improve if she works harder is, I think, unkind, and if my experience is anything to go by, probably untrue.

[kiezh]

Yes, this. The answer to "I feel like I am the only one doing any work or reaching for connection in this relationship" is never "work harder! do more!! pour your energy down that black hole unceasingly and unstintingly!!!"

This is a terrible way to live, and in my experience does not make other people feel less entitled to be shitty.

[minoanmiss]

That's what it is. Prudence is implicitly agreeing with the family that all the effort should continue to come from LW. Not precisely blaming, but mis-assigning responsibility.

[topaz_eyes]

LW#2 is already effectively in a "no-contact" situation, Prudence. How often must a person keep reaching out when it's obvious the rest of the family just doesn't care? That's a hell of a lot of one-sided emotional labour. Imho it seems LW#2's situation is past that.

LW#2 is not responsible for the choices her siblings made--if her sibs are envious of LW#2's life, that's their issue to deal with. And if keeping up with them on social media is only making LW#2 depressed, then maybe it's time to cut ties completely for her own mental health. She needs to focus on being with people who care about her for herself.

[adrian_turtle]

I don't think she's in a "no contact" situation. She's in a "low contact" situation that she feels bad about. (Partly because of history, partly because she seems to be framing each contact as a sort of bid for family approval.) Making it a different kind of low-contact situation might be better for her. I like the idea of letters. (Especially greeting cards! Holiday greeting cards are traditional for a reason!) And shifting her own thinking to just looking for validation elsewhere; instead of her current state of caring a lot about her family's opinion and being angry that they're Doing It All Wrong.

[topaz_eyes]

Realistically, if LW#2's family won't reach out to call or visit her in real time, the likelihood of them replying to her letters or greeting cards will probably be even lower. I agree, she's better off investing her emotional energy elsewhere.

[green_grrl]

Their “pop out babies” lifestyle may be what they chose, but it likely means they’re exhausted, flustered, and perhaps at times even a little envious of the life you’ve been able to create for yourself.

Very likely true. But given the family environment they will never admit it out loud and will continue to browbeat her into joining the must-have-babies cult like crabs clawing back an escapee.

[melannen]

#1 seems like it would be good advice if that was actually how the conversations were going, but based on the letter the conversations are actually starting more like:

You: Arghh! My mom wants me to call her again and it's driving me round the bend!

...which requires a different continuation than the suggested ones.

I'm not sure if Prudence is suggesting that LW should just stop complaining about her family to her friends or just isn't answering the letter that was written.

[minoanmiss]

Nah, I think that opening can lead into the same conversation, or a similar on.

LW: Arghh! My mom wants me to call her again and it's driving me round the bend!

SS: Don't call her back! Set a boundary!

LW: takes a breath Nah, I just needeed to wave my arms a bit and blow off frustration. She does call me too much but I've thought about it and it's not to the level where I need to set a hard boundary/stop talking to her/whatever.

SS: But you talk about what a pain she is all the time!

LW: Yeah, family can be annoying or worse. Some people need to put space between themselves and their families [like S had to do with her dad and stepmom] And I appreciate that you want to help me. I guess I should think a bit about how often I complain, but what I really need is mostly to be listened to, not [overly drastic] solutions. Thank you for listening to me and I'm glad to know you have my back if something truly awful happened.

and hug

... maybe not as firmly boundary setting as Prudence suggested, but I think it might help.

[cimorene]

Agree.

[azurelunatic]

Dear LW #2: have you considered switching all of the efforts you're now putting into synchronous communication into asynchronous communication, like greeting cards or postcards? It sounds like you'd love to be closer and give them insights into the best parts of your life, but they keep dumping cold water on it. Giving them some time to reflect on what they want to say in return might let them fake some happiness for your accomplishments, even though your accomplishments don't align with their narrow view of what success looks like for a woman.

[sathari]

Oooh, this is good advice--- whether or not it actually works with LW's particular family, it's still a good thing to try before giving up altogether.

[sathari]

LW#2: Have you tried something that's somewhere between actively going no-contact and more passively just... drifting? (I was going to say "ghosting" because that tends to be how I imagine ghosting usually working for the person doing it: it's not [necessarily] an active decision not to contact the person being ghosted, it's just... not actively making an effort to pursue the relationship? But I realized that word might have other linguistic nuances that I've missed.) As in, just... don't actively look up information about family or do more than casually scroll past anything from them that shows up in your social media*, but don't "actively" "go no-contact" as in a mental state of "I am not ever talking to these people again". Maybe this is more of a state-of-mind thing than a distinction with an actual difference in behavior, but thinking of it as "I'm not making the effort to do anything to maintain these relationships" rather than "I am deliberately ending these relationships in other than the purely genealogical or genetic sense" might be easier for LW to do?

*Without knowing more about how LW is using social media to keep up with family, I can't be quite sure how to word this advice: if she's looking up their social media feeds or otherwise doing anything active to seek out information about them, much less replying in any form to what they post, that's definitely a thing to try taking a break from/not doing, at least for a while. If it's something like Facebook or The Site Formerly Known As (neither of which I have ever used, so I may be wrong about how they work), and LW's relatives' posts/etc. are just showing up as part of the rest of LW's contacts, then maybe just sorta nod and scroll on along without actively engaging?

[mrissa]

Yes this.

Especially combined with recognizing out loud that you are allowed to have your own values and they are allowed to have their own values and the two do not match up. Because the disrespect definitely goes both ways here--"I respect the work it takes to raise small children" is not the same as "they're popping out kids." No human being pops out kids, and nobody I've ever met who talks about it that way manages to conceal a certain amount of contempt about entire affair from the people engaged in it.

Now, does that sometimes come from "everybody respects your thing and not my thing, and that sucks"? Absolutely. But acknowledging that she doesn't share values with her family and is not going to get validation from there might well help her to allocate her time and energy elsewhere, and to be able to say, "you know what, we're really different people, we value different things in life, and that's okay."

I have so much sympathy for every piece of "I have good news" being greeted with "you're PREGNANT????" because I have lived that nightmare, but also...as frustrating as it is, you can gauge your audience and just learn to SAY, "I have good work news!" And also you can cultivate friends you can call to say, "I have good news!" who will say, "Ooooh, what?" and not, "is it a BABY?" Less energy invested in the family, more in people who share values.

[firecat]

This would be my choice as well, to stop contacting the family without formally going no contact. It’s my general approach to relationships where I’m not sure of the status: I’ll reach out several times and if I get no response I figure the ball is in their court.