Dear Prudence: Couple Fighting Over Vasectomy

[minoanmiss]

specifically the husband's reason not to get one.

Her Body, Her Choice, My Body, My Choice: My wife and I are 33 and 34, respectively, and have two children. Pregnancy was hard on my wife (nonstop morning sickness, food aversions, and constantly uncomfortable) and she said she didn’t want to have any more children after our son was born four years ago. I was supportive of her wishes, even though I thought we’d have at least one more child.

After _Roe v. Wade_ was overturned, our state enacted stricter restrictions on abortion. We are both outraged at what is going on and I have tried to be understanding and supportive of the complex feelings she, and all women, are dealing with. One of my wife’s solutions is for me to get a vasectomy. She is currently on birth control but has, rightly, decided that preventing pregnancy shouldn’t be all on the women. I do not want a vasectomy and told her I was willing to use condoms and explore other options to prevent pregnancy if she no longer wanted to be on birth control. She did not like this response and insisted I need to get a vasectomy, and even scheduled an appointment for me to see the doctor.

Prudie, I do not want a vasectomy because there are a lot of unknowns in life and I don’t want to permanently take away my choice of having future children if something happens and I am left divorced or widowed. My father’s first wife died unexpectedly when my brother and sister were 6 and 9 and five years later he married my mother and had me and my sisters. I tried to get my wife to shelve this conversation and talk about it at a later date, when emotions weren’t so raw off of such a major event, but she wouldn’t let it go and kept pressing.

I finally told her my reason—that if we ever ended up divorced or anything happened to her, I didn’t want to take away the option of more children. As expected, this did not go over well and we had a big fight, resulting in her going to spend the weekend at her sister’s house. She came home, but is angry at me and claims everything from I don’t really love her if I am thinking about children with another woman to accusing me of cheating on her and plotting divorce. I am trying to be patient and understanding. I tried to explain the situation like our prenuptial agreement (that she proposed), and that just because we signed one didn’t mean we were thinking of getting a divorce before we married. I don’t know what else to do. We tried speaking to a marriage therapist but the session was not productive. We both go to therapy individually, but I do not know if she is talking about the situation with her therapist. A couple of months ago our relationship was warm and loving, and I felt like we were partners who could communicate honestly with one another and now my marriage feels cold, distant, and bitter. How do I get us back on track?

A: How are you discussing this with your therapist? Because it sounds to me like your anxiety about a hypothetical future in which you get divorced or are moving past a dead wife is ruining the marriage you have now with your very-much-alive wife. That’s a problem. To refuse to do something to keep your current relationship intact and happy because you might one day be in another relationship is not wise. And no, this isn’t like a prenup. A prenup is signed once and from then on has no effect on your day-to-day life unless the worst happens. A decision about birth control is completely different. Someone has to do something, or you have to stop having sex or risk having an unplanned child.

You need to apologize to your wife. Not for your choice to pass on a vasectomy (yes, it is your body, and that’s your right—if you just don’t want to have surgery because you don’t, that’s OK) but for prioritizing your future with a possible second wife over your present. Try to figure out how you go there, mentally (I’m guessing it might have to do with the tragedy in your father’s life) so you can explain it to her and reassure her that you aren’t actually planning to leave, you’re just over-fixated on worst-case scenarios. Re-emphasize your very fair offer to take responsibility for birth control by using condoms. Perhaps the two of you could even look into other options, like fertility awareness or natural family planning (though these options leave fewer room for mistakes). But none of these conversations can happen until you repair the damage you did when you shared your exit plan. Make that a priority. Because right now, you’re closer to moving on to family #2 than you ever thought.

Q. Re: Her Body, Her Choice, My Body, My Choice: It’s not unreasonable to consider the issue of a second marriage when discussing fertility decisions when in one’s 30s. He may have gone too far with his comments, but both of them need to figure out with their own therapists (and whether the wife is discussing this with her therapist is none of the LW’s business) how they feel about whatever matters to them. Full stop.

A. I mean, I feel like there are a lot of things that fall into the category of “not unreasonable” but also the category of “very bad for a marriage.” What if, say, one spouse needed an expensive medical treatment and the other spouse said they couldn’t help pay for it because they were saving money for a possible future second marriage? I guess under your theory, that’s reasonable. But it still sucks and is no way to live.

Q. Re: Her Body, Her Choice, My Body, My Choice: Prior to getting a vasectomy, the husband should get some of his sperm stored in a sperm bank. WIN-WIN for everyone involved.

A. Not a bad idea, but he might argue that he’d rather get his next imaginary future wife pregnant the old-fashioned, free way instead of IUI or IVF.

Comments

[ashbet]

Eeesh, such mixed feelings about this one — at least he’s volunteering to use condoms rather than putting it all off on his wife to manage (although, for some people, this isn’t a great option — I find them very uncomfortable, so part of being in a serious relationship for me is mutual testing and giving up barriers.)

I do feel like his family’s history contributes to his feelings on this, and I also feel for his wife in our new age of forced birth (and the idea that her husband is “preserving his fertility for Wife #2.)

I wish the surgery was equally noninvasive for both parties — I had my tubes tied, and it was a procedure that required general anesthesia and a painful but brief recovery for several days (as well as some small but visible abdominal scars.)

I think that the wife should take control of her fertility and get sterilized to ensure that unwanted pregnancies don’t happen, but these two also REALLY need relationship counseling to get themselves back in a position of trust.

I wouldn’t normally be putting the burden on her to get the procedure, but demanding that her partner get a surgery that he doesn’t want is not very fair to him.

[lilysea]

I liked the suggestion that he freeze his sperm and then get a vasectomy - so he'd have back up frozen sperm if he ever needed/wanted it.

[cereta]

If husband insists (and he may not; there are people who don't know that's an option) that he impregnate Hypothetical Future Wife through and only through PIV sex, I am 100% on wife's side, and would advise HFW to stay far away. His body, his choice; her body, her choice not to take that risk. Bank the damn sperm, dude.

[lethe1]

From what I've read, a vasectomy is much less invasive and easier to undo than sterilization for a woman. If that is true, I am wholeheartedly on her side.

And using condoms instead of other birth control? No way, far too risky.

[cimorene]

I gather that that IS true but that vasectomy isn't necessarily reversible either because something can go wrong. But then there have also been cases where men impregnated someone after having had a vasectomy, so it can go both ways.

But regardless, as I understand it, sperm banking is probably more misadventure-proof, although I guess it could always run up against a lack of future money or partner willingness to use IVF.

[julian]

There was another one like this recently, except more annoying. I think.

Then again, this is somewhat annoying in and of itself. And very anxiety-ridden.

But also, everything I've ever been told about vasectomies is that they have a *better* (not 100%, but better) chance of being reversed than getting one's tubes tied. That's not mentioned in his part of the letter at all. What's up?

[green_grrl]

I read a Best of Redditors Updates recently that was infuriating. Wife in a similar situation wanted husband to get snipped or no sex. Husband said he just didn’t wanna, so okay, no sex. After responses posted, they decided to use condoms and they’ve been doing that, and wife is considering a copper iud. Husband is still a jerk for just… doesn’t wanna, no particular reason.

[castiron]

This is a tough one, because "I want to keep the option of future children open" is a legitimate reason not to get sterilized. And on the other hand, LW is saying "My keeping open the possibility of children in the future is more important than your not having to bear the burden of birth control or risk of pregnancy." Which, yeah, not a good look, especially in a climate that's saying women's reproductive wishes don't matter.

That said, if I were advising LW's wife, I'd tell her to get her tubes tied for her own peace of mind. What LW says about wanting to keep the option open applies to her in reverse -- what if LW dies and she's in a new relationship with an unsnipped man? If she's gotten the tubal ligation, she can spend the next 20 years with minimal worries, whether with LW or with someone else.

[jadelennox]

I would, advise that, too -- and I did, when my partner refused to get a vasectomy -- but it is more invasive than a vasectomy, to be sure. A vasectomy is so simple that a doctor has done one to himself; even a laparoscopic tubal is still abdominal surgery.

All these stories boil down to two things:

1. both parties have the right to refuse coerced medical procedures (vasectomy) or drugs (oral contraceptives)
2. both parties have the right to set the pre-conditions for sex.

If she's not willing to have PIV sex with a fertile guy, that's legit. If he's not willing to get snipped, that's also legit. Either they can have non PIV sex, or they can stop fucking, or one of them can move their position. Those are the choices.

[feldman]

Family planning was something spouse and I talked about bluntly and periodically since dating, and in my case I was not putting my body on the line with pregnancy for a guy who wouldn't get the snip when we were done. That's the bias I'm bringing in.

They still don't truly agree on the number of kids. It feels like he's still looking for that third baby, or at least cherishing the possibility of maybe. Meanwhile she's looking for more of his skin in the game than "supportive of your complex feelings" about forced reproduction. That's a huge disconnect that condoms won't resolve.

[redbird]

I wonder whether the "other options to prevent pregnancy" he is proposing include "no more PIV sex until after menopause," which would also keep his options open if his wife dies or they break up.

Because he says they are "both outraged" and that he is "supportive" of the "complex feelings" of a woman who is sure she doesn't want to be pregnant again, but he sounds like he is prioritizing "what if you die and I want more children?" over the risks of an unwanted pregnancy. Yes I'm feeling cynical right now, but "nonstop morning sickness" plus "constantly uncomfortable" for several months might be him downplaying serious risks to her health. If I got to this that quickly, LW's wife may be sitting there in her therapy session saying "my husband wants me to risk my life so he can have more children if I die."

[sathari]

*takes a deep breath* Okay. I think this dude needs to use the following words, to himself, his therapist, and his wife: "If my father had done what my wife is asking me to, I would not exist, and this issue is hitting me at a very basic existential level". I mean, what I'm hearing around the edges of this is that he almost seems to be taking it as though his wife says he shouldn't exist. Which I don't think is a correct framing, but it's what I'm getting from him.

That being the case, this dude and the unique structure of his family are one of the few cases where I can sort of understand why cismen are all like, "But mah fyutyure CHYULDRUN" about getting a vasectomy. I mea, seriously, how much of the post-partum childcare are you even doing on whatever kids you have? Do you even like spending time with them? And how much of the slack did you pick up during your partner's pregnancy? WHY DO YOU EVEN WANT MORE KIDS UNLESS YOU ARE THE WILLING CAREGIVER OF THE ONES YOU HAVE?

(Ahem. Sorry. That's tangential to a whole longer-running rant I have about people of any gender who seem to want to produce children without necessarily wanting to parent them or even spend time with them.)

Also, this is... not quite tangential, but I remember during, maybe the last letter about vasectomies, where the columnist said a lot of his female friends had been wanting the men in their lives to step up to the plate and get the snip after the Dobbs decision, thinking that... okay, this is my bias as someone female-assigned who started seeking out permanent sterilization clear back in the GWB era and finally got a hysterectomy, but... I'm surprised that wanting to be sterilized themselves isn't more women's reaction? Because even if your chosen cismale partner or partners do/es get the snip, there are, ahem, non-chosen partners, and also vasectomies can reverse themselves. Why anyone with a uterus who doesn't want to be pregnant wouldn't want to make sure, post-Dobbs, that they can't become pregnant regardless of what any cisdude does in the vicinity of their vulva is hard for me to grasp.

[oursin]

Sterilisation for women is a much more invasive operation; and, I don't think that this has changed a very great deal since contemporaries of my own were seeking sterilisation for the very good reason of having no intention ever of being pregnant, there was then and I suspect still is a whole lot of gate-keeping and assumptions that She Might Change Her Mind About Baybeez, is she really, really, really sure? so there's a massive amount of hassle.

I'm totally going WOT!!!! over the suggestion of 'fertility awareness or natural family planning' AAARRRRGH. That used to be known as the rhythm method, aka Vatican roulette.

[cereta]

Female sterilization is both more invasive and more expensive, and more likely to get doctors refusing to perform it before a certain age, alas.

[sporky_rat]

The only way I managed to get my tubes removed (not tied, actually removed) this year was because my husband had already had a vasectomy. Otherwise I was told that it was not going to be allowed, I was too young for it and I might change my mind. Because he had already had a vasectomy last year, my husband just had to sign off on the paperwork saying he was aware that I was going be sterile me and I got it done.

[ashbet]

I think this dude needs to use the following words, to himself, his therapist, and his wife: "If my father had done what my wife is asking me to, I would not exist, and this issue is hitting me at a very basic existential level". I mean, what I'm hearing around the edges of this is that he almost seems to be taking it as though his wife says he shouldn't exist. Which I don't think is a correct framing, but it's what I'm getting from him.

Exactly this. I think that his circumstances make this especially emotionally loaded for him.

WITH THAT SAID, it’s much harder for women to get doctors to approve sterilization (spent many years playing THAT game, and basically had to get a separate tubal ligation to “prove” I was serious about wanting and needing a hysterectomy), and the invasiveness/recovery isn’t apples-to-apples.

(I still recommend that she do it, given the consequences if she gets pregnant. Wondering if she had Hyperemesis Gravidarum like I did.)

[lilysea]

I'm surprised that wanting to be sterilized themselves isn't more women's reaction? Because even if your chosen cismale partner or partners do/es get the snip, there are, ahem, non-chosen partners, and also vasectomies can reverse themselves. Why anyone with a uterus who doesn't want to be pregnant wouldn't want to make sure, post-Dobbs, that they can't become pregnant regardless of what any cisdude does in the vicinity of their vulva is hard for me to grasp

Apart from the fact that tubal ligations cost a lot more money; are more painful; and have longer recovery times

it is very, VERY difficult to find a Dr who will agree to do a tubal ligation on a woman under 40 who has not given birth.

This is because Drs believe "You'll change your mind and regret it"

Weirdly, they don't have that same belief about childless men under 40...

I had first hand experience of this - after trying
several different kinds of oral contraceptives, Implanon inserts, and an IUD, and failing to tolerate any of them

I asked a gynaecologist for a tubal ligation and was told "you're too young to know your own mind, you'll regret it"

I WAS 30

After arguing that yes, this IS what I want

I was told he would be willing to do it "if I went away and thought about it for 6 months"

unfortunately, in that 6 months, a condom broke or came off, and I had to have a surgical abortion.

And that could have completely been avoided if the gynaecologist hadn't been insisting that he knew what I wanted better than I knew what I wanted!

This is not one bad gynecologist - it's a near universal experience for single childless women under 40 asking for a tubal ligation.

[resonant]

If I were not post-menopausal, in this post-Roe world I would entirely swear off PIV sex.

Doing that is within the wife's legitimate sphere of decision-making: "Nothing that can produce living sperm is going in my vagina."

The husband's vasectomy is not within her sphere of decision-making, regardless of his reason. I think it's fine for her to *ask,* or to make it a prerequisite for having PIV sex with her, but the decision is his.

[cereta]

Yup, with the caveat that just ejaculation near the vagina can result in pregnancy. I may or may not owe a nibling to that fact.

And now I'm going to sign off before I do any more Lucy Knows Too Much About This Subject.

[melannen]

It sounds like husband might have already put that on the table: I'm not sure what else would be covered under "explore other options" when you've already eliminated condoms, sterilization and birth control.

If she's rejecting everything *but* him getting the snip, including abstinence, it's tough. I see both sides here. but I still have a little bit of schadenfreude every time this results in a man having to confront not having full control of his future reproductive choices

Honestly my suggestion would be that they are both currently having really strong emotions about this and maybe they should table it. Until November possibly?

[movingfinger]

And of course, "natural family planning" aka the app-based rhythm methods all offload an enormous amount of *daily* work onto the woman who doesn't want to get pregnant.

[sathari]

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

[mommy]

I really wish that there were equivalents to IUDs and hormonal birth control available for cis men to manage their own fertility.

[sathari]

Word. (I remember over a decade ago reading an article that was titled something like, "Ten alternatives to the wallet condom", a list of emerging technologies for male contraception, but somehow that didn't seem to get traction. Maybe one of the unintended consequences of the Dobbs decision in the US will be an increased interest/buy-in on these by dudes in general/the medical-research community.)

[tielan]

I had a friend whose husband argued this when they were deciding who would get what surgery to keep from having more children. He did the "but what if you die, dear, and I want children with the second wife" which...

She ended up getting a hysterectomy and was out for months. And then two years later he died of a heart-attack, leaving her a relatively young widow (in her thirties, they married pretty young) with no chance of more children.

Sooooo I deeeeeply LOLZ at the guys who are all "but what if she dies and I want more kids". Mate, if your dick is fucking sacred to you, then just admit it's fucking sacred to you and be done with it.

[ethelmay]

I think it's honestly quite weird to worry about other kids you might never be in a position to have when you already have two kids and your spouse is done. I mean, it's understandable that he has that emotion, given his own history, but it's not all that understandable to me that he considers it worth acting on.

I would expect that it's possible for a man to go get sperm frozen without telling his wife that he's doing so, and then get the vasectomy. Seems like a much better bet than a reversal, especially as if he did ever have these putative other kids with a new spouse, he might be relatively old at the time and it might be better to use sperm from his younger days. Also if he had the sperm frozen he could get the whole business off his mind (apart from paying the yearly fee), which might be as well for all concerned.