(no subject)

[conuly]

Dear Annie: My son has been dating a girl for a little over three years. My husband and I really like her. Our son loves her. Here's the problem: I have asked her before to help in the kitchen with meal preparation and cleanup, and she refuses.

They come once a week for meals, and we eat in front of the TV while watching shows. Everyone brings their dishes to the kitchen, but I'm left with the cleanup. Once, when I asked her for help, she said that she is company and wouldn't expect me to help at her house. They were here for Thanksgiving, and my mom asked her to join us at the table and visit, but she declined, saying she was OK where she was. My mom was hurt and upset.

I'm planning a big Christmas dinner and want the girls to help with cleanup and to sit and visit after the meal. How can I get her to get involved in the kitchen work, both before and after, and to put her phone away and sit and visit with us? -- Disappointed

Dear Disappointed: Staring at your phone and texting while at your potential in-laws' house is very rude. The polite thing to do is ask the host if he or she needs help, but it is also polite for the host not to expect the guests to do all the work. Have a talk with your son and ask him to help you out in the kitchen. Maybe his girlfriend will catch on and want to jump in. Her behavior toward your mother was also very rude, so address this with your son, too. Perhaps there is a reason he hasn't married her yet.

Comments

[conuly]

Hey, LW, dump your sexist assumptions and stop asking your guest to do the dishes. If you need help - ask your son!

[cereta]

Wow, that's just...really there, isn't it?

[naath]

oh, buy a dishwasher already. Also, helping out is nice, but why aren't you asking your son? Why do you continue to provide meals if you resent this behaviour? Why not get pizza if you want to see them without cooking? Further as someone physically incapable of helping usefully it isn't always that easy.

I detest gender segregated gatherings, and I too would resist pressure to "be in the kitchen with the ladies" when the men are watching TV

[redbird]

LW seems to have two things she'd like, and mixes them up enough that Annie missed it entirely.

"How can we get her to sit and visit with us?" would probably work better if it was separated from helping out in the kitchen, while the men don't and aren't expected to. Also, if I wanted more social time with my family, or other guests, I'd turn the TV off: watching TV together can be a social thing, but doesn't seem to be here.

I suspect that the "everyone" who brings their dishes into the kitchen and leaves LW with the cleanup includes more than one man, and that LW's son wasn't expected to wash dishes while he lived there and sees no reason to start now.

My mom was this young woman, only her in-laws didn't suck

[feldman]

That poor young woman IS VISITING! Just the wrong gender.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who reads "sit at the table and visit" as the womenfolk social activity, like dishes, in families where the menfolk hustle off to a separate place to talk after dinner. By following her boyfriend, this young woman clearly doesn't know her place!

LW, your real family problem is that grandma still hasn't earned the right to settle into a comfy effing chair after dinner and interrogate the youngfolk at her leisure.

[oursin]

'Get into the kitchen, rattle them pots and pans' - come and join us in the 1950s, duckie!

[sara]

I mean, I'd be flattered if I were dating someone and his mother and grandmother liked me enough to let me in their kitchen, but I come from a tradition where a kitchen is someone's personal space and letting someone else into it, much less letting them cook, is a huge sign of trust and acceptance. I would probably not let someone who'd only been around for three years into my kitchen unless I thought they were really great. So...even if you come from a tradition like mine, expecting someone you aren't already close with to come in the kitchen and help is weird. Never mind the gross gendered stuff.

[neotoma]

I mean, I'm from a family where helping in the kitchen is polite, but if it was only the women doing it, I'd be side-eying things too. Where is the son in this, and why isn't he stepping up?

[jadelennox]

I come from a background where I would definitely help in the kitchen -- unless it was a task for the wimminfolk, in which case I would 100% refuse. In fact, I recall having exactly this experience at one point in my youth. Even it's just chatting at the kitchen table, this smacks of letting the menfolk have their brandy, and fuck no.

[laurajv]

ayuh.

in my family, you help in the kitchen! everyone! all genders! we visit my in-laws, and all three adults who are competent to do so cook AND clean, and all children help out with both. we visit my side and it's hard to get people OUT of the kitchen. everyone's gone mad with helping cook and setting the table and doing dishes! I'm more than happy to participate.

but mannnnnn if I was expected to do it just because I am socially read as a woman? and all the socially-assigned-as-women and/or actual women people had to do it? and not the other people? if i politely refused it would be the nicest version of me. much more likely to be all Watch Volcano Laura Go.

[mommy]

LW hasn't quite figured out that "Come do chores with me!" isn't an invitation to chat. It's an invitation to do chores, and it isn't appropriate to bug someone into doing chores in someone else's home unless there's a suitable amount of money changing hands. If LW wants to chat, then they can ask to chat without the assumption that their son's girlfriend will participate in household labor.

[tielan]

I find this interesting because if the guys in a household where I'm guesting are clearly doing cleanup and washup after a meal, I'll join in. But if it's clearly defined as "women's work to clean up" then chances are strong I'll rebel and sit on my ass and pull the guest card, too.

And, frankly, if the guy I was dating left his mum and sisters to do all the cleaning up after a guest meal...we wouldn't be dating much longer.

[shirou]

There are several things going on here:
(1) three years is more than long enough to lose guest status and start pitching in, especially for weekly dinners;
(2) the gender gap is inappropriate—my wife and I both help when we visit family, mine or hers;
(3) expecting someone to put away her phone and converse is completely reasonable but should be divorced from expectations regarding chores.

[melannen]

I agree with these points, but would add:

1) three years of family dinners is enough to promote to you "family" status, where you pitch in just like everybody else - but everybody else doesn't seem to be pitching in either. I would say other, closer family members not pitching in is a problem that needs to be solved first.
2) I would not be surprised if the real issue is that MIL wants her to be one of 'the girls' and she doesn't want to be. MIL, if your family has a gender divide in chores and chats, that's up to you, but if you file her in your family categories with your other non-girl relatives, things may go a lot smoother.
3) When one is family at a family dinner where one is expected to pitch in, I don't think it's unreasonable to let yourself be comfortable with the family, even if that means staring at your phone when you don't feel like chatting. At a special event like Christmas, it's generally a sign of someone really not wanting to take part in the event. LW, can you think of any reasons why this person might be wishing she was anywhere else at your Christmas?

[conuly]

(3) expecting someone to put away her phone and converse is completely reasonable but should be divorced from expectations regarding chores.

Unless, perhaps, GF feels she is conceding enough by going over to her boyfriend's parents' home every week.

[azurelunatic]

When I'm around people I'm not comfortable with, I am absolutely taking refuge in my phone.

Who wants to bet that the proposed topics of conversation that LW wants to corner her for are ones that GF would walk on fire to avoid?

[jadelennox]

THIS THIS THIS THIS.

[mommy]

I'd argue that (1) is dependent on (2). If none of the guys are helping, then there's a giant gendered assumption about chore assignments going on. In a household where everyone helps, even one year of weekly dinners is more than enough to start helping out. In the LW's situation? Eh, maybe get the rest of the family to help, particularly the people who actually live there.

I agree on (3). Expecting someone to get off their phone during family occasions and assuming someone should help with chores are two very different conversations.

[shirou]

Agreed. On one hand, it shouldn’t be the girlfriend’s responsibility to fix her boyfriend’s family. On the other, if she is refusing requests for help because of the gender imbalance, then claiming she is doing so because of guest status is, in my opinion, a confusing misdirection.

LW’s son needs to take a more active role, but it’s unclear how much he knows about the dynamic between his mother and girlfriend. LW doesn’t even mention talking to him, which I find a glaring omission.

[purlewe]

yeah, if the LW wants the GF to be involved she needs to get the son involved. This means no more boys don't clean up baloney. I can see the GF saying she is a guest to soften the blow/misdirect if this was her "polite" way of saying no way am I going to do dishes to support the patriarchy. But if say, the LW had actually talked to her son about this then perhaps this would no longer be an issue. Also, at this point grandma should be allowed to sit herself down and not be doing dishes.

Another viewpoint. My wife has never, ever, helped out in the kitchen of her own house. Her father is OCD and no one is allowed into the kitchen to help cook him cook, not even his wife. And no one is allowed to help her mother clean (since she is by extension doing it the way he wants it cleaned and no one else is good enough to do it but him or her). I have never stepped foot into the kitchen bc SHE has never foot into the kitchen. If LW actually talked to the GF, like sat down outside of the kitchen and had a conversation OTHER than help me clean up the patriarchy, she might find that no one in her family cooks. They might all eat on paper plates and toss them in the trash. But really at this point have a conversation with her other than about food or cleaning and get to know her instead of having expectations. To LW the GF is a 2 dimensional figure that doesn't get to be a person unless she is helping. And that doesn't seem right.