agonyaunt | (no subject)

(no subject)

Dear Carolyn: I was very fortunate that my parents raised me to appreciate simplicity and avoid greed and excess. Now I’m in love with a wonderful woman whose family lives what I consider a toxic lifestyle.

Examples: They serve too much food for parties and holidays — more than can be eaten not just on that day, but on several days; they exchange so many useless gifts at every giving occasion (Christmas, birthdays, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, etc.); their closets are stuffed with more clothing and shoes than you could wear in a lifetime; their home is overflowing with furniture, tchotchkes and other useless things.

Since we’ve gotten more serious, I’ve mentioned just a couple of times to my girlfriend how damaging her parents’ and siblings’ lifestyle is. Recently, she snapped at me to let up on being “so judgmental” about her family. I always thought we were on the same wavelength, since she herself lives pretty simply. Now I’m afraid her more minimalist lifestyle is because she’s just starting out, and she’ll eventually adopt her family’s behavior as she gets more successful.

I love her and don’t want to break up, but I’d hate to marry and raise children with someone who would expect to live like that. It seems like a sore subject, and I don’t want to harp on it, but I do need some reassurance. How should I ask about this?

— Worried

Worried: It’s a “sore subject” because you’re being “so judgmental.” So, SO judgmental.

A hypothetical: It’s one thing to be different. Okay. You do you, I do me. Maybe we work together, maybe we don’t. At least we can talk about it. It’s another for you to look at my family and think: greedy, excessive, toxic, too much, useless, useless, damaging.

Uhh. Maybe we can work together, but you know what? Don’t bother. I’d rather tell you where to stick your pristine simplicity.

Here’s the fun part. I am actually inclined to agree with you that too much stuff is problematic. It’s a waste of resources, money, space, even time — since more stuff means more hours on stuff management. Cluttered spaces can be distracting, depressing, hard to keep clean. The planet weeps. You’re not wrong on much of your substance. And credit to your parents for that, sure.

But oh, my goodness. Bang-bang-banging on this one note — this very worthy note! — left many thoughtful, persuasive notes of subtlety, nuance and respect unplayed. Such as: Big food and gifts are central to some families, traditions, cultures. Your minimalism won’t land with these audiences the way it lands with you.

Are some of these people adherents to “greed and excess,” sure. But hardly all. And unless your mind is open to the many complicated emotional connections involved across generations, you’re going to miss the fact that some people don’t think it’s love unless the table legs tremble with the weight of the food.

Someone who sticks to such beliefs is probably not the right partner for you. Totally fair. But someone from that tradition who remains sympathetic to it is also not the devil. Or reared by one. If none of this moves you, then that’s your prerogative — but it’ll make it tough to move forward with your girlfriend’s family and possibly with your girlfriend, if only your extreme will suffice.

Either way, you two really need to talk about this. For that, allow me an emphatic yikes to seeking “reassurance” — which sets conversation up as a test you expect her to pass. Instead, seek understanding. All along, you’ve assumed. Listen and learn instead. Then decide what you’ll do.

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I don't know why LW is talking about breaking up with her when she's the one who has ever reason to break up with LW. If LW doesn't get that stick outta their ass, and use it to pry their head out of the same place, they're gonna die alone.

How did this LW get so far in this relationship in the first place? They sound like the most annoying ascetic hippie who ever hippied.

It's the phrase "toxic lifestyle" that gets me.

A family is not toxic because they buy each other gifts and cook food for the holidays. And if that's your only complaint about your inlaws, congrats, you can die happy.

Excuse me there is such a thing as USING UP THE LEFTOVERS.

But I come from a long line of "food is love" people.

It's just not that weird to make several days worth of food for holidays! Everybody gets some of everything they like, and nobody has to really cook for the rest of the week, win-win.

Exactly! Thanksgiving with my family is always a giant potluck feast complete with a stack of takeout containers so everyone can bring food home. Other events are also likely to have leftovers that get divided too. And I'll tell you, as somebody who spent several years living paycheck to paycheck, I always appreciated when I could go home with a few days worth of food

I will never get people from cultures who only make enough food for the day. I come from a big family. Sometimes it's hard to guess how much food you need to feed twenty to forty people (average size of a family party, we almost exclusively do potluck) and having too much is better than not having enough. You bring a lot of food to parties so you can send home food with folks who don't have the time/ resources to cook.

As for the gifts/ house clutter, some of us are just maximalists. It's okay for people to live differently than you live, LW. (Also hoarding spread out over a family like that is a sign of serious generational trauma that takes time to heal. Or could be a sign of financial insecurity.)

Teel Dear: This LW needs to spend some time doing some serious self reflection on why they're so judgemental of non-minimalists. LW's girlfriend deserves better.

Also hoarding spread out over a family like that is a sign of serious generational trauma that takes time to heal. Or could be a sign of financial insecurity.

Or there may be a genetic component, as there seems to be with so many things.

Though, to be honest, LW is so freaking annoying that I'm not willing to accept that these people are borderline hoarders just on their say-so. "Stuffed" and "overflowing" could mean almost anything from somebody determined to be hostile and judgmental.

I was thinking of the hoarding behaviors in my own family and their causes.

LW is absolutely a non-reliable narrator.

I don't know if what he's describing even counts as hoarding. I feel like this guy would come into my home and decide I was excessive and toxic because I have books, board games, and DVDs fully visible on shelves

He'd hate my house. My walls are colors, I've got art hung everywhere I can, I've got display cases, and gasp the furniture doesn't match.

You have FURNITURE?! How hedonistic of you

I have craft tools and supplies! and make things that I don't immediately need or that are purely decorative! How toxic!

How wasteful!

LW sounds absolutely *insufferable*, and I’m not sure that the girlfriend wouldn’t be better off breaking up with them.

As an aside, looking at someone’s parents’ home isn’t necessarily a predictor of how they would live — I wish, my mother is one of those House Beautiful types (ofc, she can afford to hire help, and she lives in a place with a lot of storage, unlike me), and I am an indifferent housekeeper at best, and love my clutter!

my parents raised me to appreciate simplicity and avoid greed and excess

LW's attitude seems like there's something more going on than just appreciating his own minimalist lifestyle. Dismissing GF's family's lifestyle outright as "toxic" and "damaging" is really concerning.

I want to say this is virtue signalling, but I sense a real undercurrent of envy and resentment here. One person's "simplicity" may actually mean "deprivation," and I have to wonder if LW might have felt deprived in some way growing up.

I think gf just needs to throw this one back…

I have, foolishly, detrimentally, dated people who shamed me for the space I and my belongings take up in the world. I have been friends with people who told me I had no right to my belongings, foodways, or consumption in general, and cited authorities ranging from the Bible to Marie Kondo. I desperately wish I could show LW's girlfriend this letter and give her the number for Whole Man Disposal before this judgy asshole starts cutting pieces off her soul.

Not that I have an opinion on this one.

This letter reads to me like if Ian from My Big Fat Greek Wedding was a total asshole about Toula's family instead of confused but he got the spirit, you know? Imagine being morally disgusted by, uh… leftovers at parties? and giving presents??

First, Carolyn is right about the LW being judgmental and inflexible.

Second, there are useless gifts, but most of the time it's useless to the recipient. Things like food someone is allergic to, clothing that the giver knows is the wrong size and in a color they hate, or a cheap mug with a picture of a cat to someone who already has dozens and doesn't use or display any of them.

I'm thinking of Naomi Kritzer's annual list of "gifts for people you don't like but have to buy something for," where the message is "I'm supposed to buy you something, and this is something." Naomi also notes that a lot of gift quality is subjective, and she has included things that I would like, listed because they were in very emphatic color that most people wouldn't want." And part of the plausible deniability is whether the giver can say "I saw this and remembered you like blue" or "you love dogs, here's a dog-themed thing" with a straight face.

None of that seems to be going on here. LW isn't complaining that their girlfriend is giving them lots of stuff they don't want, and if she were, that would absolutely be in the letter.

Note: I googled that list of gifts, fell upon the 2023 or 2024 list, and have to say that I unironically love the three possums howling T-Shirt. I would wear the hell out of that.

I love a person who sees a family that emphasizes generosity and gift-giving and immediately jumps to "they are greedy".

LW doesn't even have any actual complaints about their personalities! It's just insane.

Look, I will be the first to admit that my house has far too much clutter, that many of the things we own have turned out to be a waste of resources because we don't use or enjoy them, that our clutter makes it harder to clean the house and to use the spaces, etc.

And nonetheless I think LW sounds like a self-righteous twit whose girlfriend should leave him for someone who's less hung up on minimalism as virtue signal.

Can gift-giving be toxic? Sure, when it's done to demonstrate status and power rather than to express affection and appreciation. But having a family culture of gift exchanges isn't inherently toxic.

One person's useless tschochtke is another person's treasured memento of a loved one or a special memory, or simply an object that they enjoy looking at.

Also, gasp! her family makes a huge amount of food for parties and holidays -- in other words, for SPECIAL OCCASIONS. LW isn't saying the food is getting thrown away; he's saying it takes a few days to get through it all. He's not saying that GF's family wastes food at their everyday meals -- has he even seen how they eat on normal days, or does he only see them at parties? Plenty of people who have big food extravaganzas for special occasions are frugal and modest in their day-to-day meals.

Yeah, I'm on Team Break Up For Her Sake.

*laughs in Italian*

By the way, the reason we make so much dang food at holidays is because HOLIDAY MEALS ARE A TON OF WORK and this way you can just eat leftovers for days while you recover from all the effort. “Make enough to cover it and then rest” isn’t rocket science.

And when it's a food you only have around that holiday, leftovers extends the enjoyment! I'm happy to eat turkey and stuffing all Thanksgiving weekend because I'm not going to have it again for another year, plus on Friday-Sunday all the work I have to do is warm it up.

We were always The Non-Local Relatives Who Stayed At The Host's House and having a week's worth of Christmas dinner leftovers to eat while we were there made things so much easier. (Especially because the hosts were people who just didn't cook otherwise.)

Sorry that replied to you - it should have been on its own! I agree with everything you said.

Ah yes, textbook example of the cultural phenomenon of “feeling guilty and sinful about our extra five pounds isn’t enough, now we also have to feel guilty and sinful about having more than one wooden spoon.”

as a fat maximalist, this guy can fuck off forever.

I was very fortunate that my parents raised me to be superior. How can I make others recognize that they are inferior and must aspire to be more like me?

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