minoanmiss: Girl holding a rainbow-colored oval, because one needs a rainbow icon (Rainbow)
minoanmiss ([personal profile] minoanmiss) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2017-08-27 01:01 am

Manner Matters: Should You Tattle on Kids Sneaking Food?

The comments on this one were particularly lively and contentious.

Dear Molly,
I was out last night with some friends, including a mom and her 4-year-old boy and a dad with his 8-year-old girl. After watching the girl eat her own dinner and snitch the bacon off her dad's burger, I watched her ask for a piece of the 4-year-old's uneaten pizza from his mom, and then turn her back to her dad, hold the pizza under the table, and pinch bites as unobtrusively as she could—to her dad, that is; I saw the whole thing.

I'm wondering whether I should say something to her dad about her behavior. This girl is very chubby, and I have a vexed relationship with food, so I realize that I am hyperaware of her eating on both counts. Yet I cannot shake the notion that even if she were slender as a reed, sneaking food is such a terrible habit that I must find some way to help. I'm not even sure there IS anything that can be done, but if there's something I can do, I'd gladly do it.

I will be grateful for any advice you can give concerning what I cannot help seeing as an eating disorder in development, but again, I may be overreacting due to my own history with food.

Sincerely,
Disordered


Dear Disordered,

I am a firm believer that all adults need to look out for all kids. The idea that parents see all and can handle all is ridiculous. I appreciate nothing more than when another adult kindly and constructively corrects my kid—usually I either haven't seen what happened or I'm just worn out with uttering yet another reminder of what behavior is expected. Plus, a comment from a non-parent often has a much bigger impact, as if the kid suddenly realizes that it's not just a nagging parent, but the world in general that doesn't care for seeing what their food looks like while it's being chewed.

In this particular situation, it would have been great if you could have skipped past all your concerns about eating disorders and food issues and just stuck to the question of table manners. It's not polite to hold food in your lap and pick off bits of it to eat and her parent couldn't see she was doing that; so, it would have been grand if you had simply said "Hannah [or whatever her name is], please don't hold food in your lap at the table, put the pizza on your plate" in the non-judgmental, matter-of-fact way that is how kind and thoughtful adults correct children's table manners. No comment on how much she was eating, no accusation of sneaking anything, just observing that she's not practicing good table manners (children are the exception, obviously, to not commenting on others' manners). Since her dad couldn't see what she was doing, this is, in my assessment, an ideal time for a non-parent manner reminder.

Her dad could have then addressed the whole issue of whether or not she was allowed to have a piece of pizza he didn't know about as he saw fit.

Since that moment in time has passed, you're in a slightly stickier wicket. My answer boils down to this (and I think other parents reading this would agree): I would want to know if my kid was sneaking food.

I'd go ahead and give them a ring and say something like "Something's been nagging at me since we had dinner the other night. I don't know if you realized that Hannah had a piece of Zachary's pizza. She ate it with her back to you and was picking at it in a way that made me think she wasn't supposed to have it or was sneaking it or something. I have had such a messed up relationship to food, I know I'm super sensitive to stuff like this, but I realized that it's the kind of thing I would want to know about my kid even if it's not a big deal, so I'm passing it along." Some positive things about your time together, their daughter in particular, and their family in general would be nice to add.

As with all potentially sensitive communications, do it on the phone or in person, not by email or text.

Two important things: do not mention the girl's weight and do not use the phrase "eating disorder" or similar in reference to the child. You are not diagnosing or judging her or them, you are simply passing along information about their child's behavior that you think they might want to know. If they get at all defensive (some people hear any observation about their child as a criticism of them), offer an immediate apology and repeat that you're sure it's just you being weird about food and drop it. You've done your bit.

I'm thinking readers are going to have their own takes on this, and it's quite possible I'm missing some obvious other approaches to this. I can't wait to hear them!
cereta: (foodporn)

[personal profile] cereta 2017-08-27 01:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm pretty much with you. I would have filed this very firmly under MYOB. Then again, I don't discipline other people's kids when the parents are present unless (a) they are presenting a danger to themselves or others or (b) they are doing something that is bothering another kid.
shirou: (cloud 2)

[personal profile] shirou 2017-08-27 05:33 am (UTC)(link)
Off-topic: I was completely unfamiliar with the word "wicket" and the metaphor "sticky wicket." I had to look them up. Are they common and I just missed them somehow?

I like Molly's advice about asking the girl to put the pizza on her plate, but now that it's over and done with, I think the best thing to do is forget about it. One of two things is going on here: (1) The LW has completely misinterpreted the situation, in which case silence is the best option; or (2) the father is doing such an extraordinarily poor job monitoring his daughter's food intake that he fails to notice when she takes bacon off his hamburger, in which case a comment from the LW is unlikely to help much. In either case, there is little to be gained by pursuing this matter further.

ETA: I noticed the food mentioned in this letter were a burger, bacon, and pizza. That may be an artifact of going to a restaurant; I know I often order my kids' favorite foods at a restaurant in a desperate attempt to engender good behavior. However, I also strive to serve them healthy meals at home. Nothing useful for the LW here, but as a general rule, I would much rather parents serve their children healthy meals on a regular basis than starve them for the sake of weight loss.
Edited 2017-08-27 05:39 (UTC)
sally_maria: Fifth Doctor - text Not very many men can pull off a decorative vegetable (Doctor Five)

[personal profile] sally_maria 2017-08-27 09:56 am (UTC)(link)
With regard to your off-topic, I'd say they were a bit old-fashioned, but perfectly understood in the UK, and probably in other countries where cricket is a major sport. I'd certainly expect people to recognise and understand the reference, even if they didn't commonly use it themselves.
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2017-08-27 05:55 am (UTC)(link)
I wouldn't mention it to the parents, in case the parents are trying to limit the child's food intake for weight-loss,

and the child needs to sneak food in order to not feel hungry and exhausted all the time!
the_rck: (Default)

[personal profile] the_rck 2017-08-27 06:42 am (UTC)(link)
My immediate thought about a kid sneaking food is connected to restricted diets but not to calorie restricted diets. I'm pretty sure that's not what's going on here, but my half-sister has a dairy allergy that my father tried to convince her wasn't real (he thought his ex had made it up to be mean), and her mother had to watch closely to make sure she didn't eat dairy and argue with her about it.

I did food elimination diets more than once as a child to try to figure out what foods made me sick. It's a really hard thing to do with a child because all they really get is that some normal food is suddenly forbidden.
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)

[personal profile] deird1 2017-08-27 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Absolutely. I would want to know if my kid was eating something behind my back, because he's not old enough to get all the reasons why I might not want him to be eating something.
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)

[personal profile] deird1 2017-08-27 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
See, often for me it's not "my son can't eat apples" but "my son has already eaten THREE apples today, and if he's allowed he'll keep gorging himself on apples and nothing else, and then he'll be up all night with a stomachache oh god..."
the_rck: (Default)

[personal profile] the_rck 2017-08-27 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
There's also-- Both of my cousins on my father's side had behavioral changes triggered by red dye. They were teenagers before they actually understood why they couldn't have the red candy or popsicles or cake. They thought their parents were just being mean.
kaberett: Trans symbol with Swiss Army knife tools at other positions around the central circle. (Default)

[personal profile] kaberett 2017-08-28 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
My baby brother was entirely capable of sticking to his guns about "I'm not allowed milk." in nursery by the time he was 3, up to and including in the face of a staff member who'd not read his notes and was treating him as though he "just" didn't want to eat his crusts, or whatever. (When I was there they told me I should eat my crusts so that my hair would curl, and then were utterly stymied when autistic-tiny-me stubbornly insisted that in that case I wouldn't be eating them because I didn't want curly hair.)

So. This is manageable?
neotoma: Neotoma albigula, the white-throated woodrat! [default icon] (Default)

[personal profile] neotoma 2017-08-27 08:49 am (UTC)(link)
My first impression is the letter writer is a judgmental ass -- the sort who tries to tell you your food is 'wrong' because they wouldn't have chosen to eat it.

The second is there is something seriously screwy if a child is trying to hide *eating* from a parent. Maybe pizza is forbidden because she's casein-intolerant and she doesn't understand that. Maybe the father is restricting her food intake and she's desperately hungry. So maybe an adult should butt out of it.

kutsuwamushi: (Default)

[personal profile] kutsuwamushi 2017-08-27 06:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think there's a "right" answer in this situation, because there are just too many reasons that the girl might have been hiding her eating.

Her parents might or might not be restricting her diet. If they are, it might be for good reasons (e.g. an allergy) or for bad reasons (e.g. trying to make her thin). If they aren't restricting her diet, she could have been hiding the pizza because kids are just weird sometimes, or she could have been hiding it because she was ashamed. If she was ashamed, it might be because of society at large, or it might be because her parents shame her.

What's best for the child is what's important, but that changes according to the situation. Like, Molly is answering from HER perspective as a parent, thinking that SHE would react reasonably to the information.

If I was in the same situation as the letter writer I would probably make my best guess according to what I knew about the parents, but the letter writer doesn't mention anything about it at all. She seems more preoccupied with the girl's weight and the idea that sneaking food is a "terrible habit," and not considering all of the different reasons she might be sneaking food.
Edited 2017-08-27 18:12 (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)

[personal profile] the_rck 2017-08-27 10:32 pm (UTC)(link)
The LW is definitely being terrible in terms of her motivation. Based on why she wants to say something, I'd come down hard on the side of telling her to mind her own business.

Most of the parents I've dealt with in the last fifteen to twenty years who had allergy/intolerance related food restriction concerns for their kids have told adults who might be around when the child is offered or asks for food. When I was a kid, people mostly didn't say anything because a lot of other adults didn't believe them because they'd never met someone with a food related allergy/reaction.
sathari: (Complaints in the system)

[personal profile] sathari 2017-08-28 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
*takes a deep breath* Okay, honestly, for me, the LW's handwringing and pearlclutching about how "sneaking food is such a terrible habit" is honestly entirely overshadowing my ability to respond to the perfectly legit but somewhat more abstract question of "What should [generic adult] do if they see [generic child] eating food in a way that indicates they are hiding that food from their parental units?" As though "sneaking food" is a priori an awful thing, not that "it's bad because it's poor manners" (which admittedly are sometimes pretty arbitrary) or "it's bad because she might have allergies or other health issues". So my first response would be that, whatever the advice to said generic adult might be, the advice for this LW would be to deal with their issues about food and the ways in which it's consumed by others before attempting to address anyone else's food-related behaviors.

Okay, got that off my chest. (Because I might just have a tic about other people asserting a priori that something is just wrong or terrible or whatever, lol.)

Regarding the "generic-adult-sees-generic child-eating-under-the-table" question: I... think everyone here pretty much nailed the length and breath of that question, ranging from "possibility that parent is unhealthily restricting child's food consumption because fat-shaming is a thing and child is trying not to starve" to "child has allergy/adverse reaction to [food] and needs to avoid eating it" and I'm honestly not sure how [generic adult] should go about teasing that out, if at all, except maybe by finding an occasion where they can ask their friends, including the parent in question, as a group about any dietary restrictions that they or their children have, possibly while planning another food-related outing, which puts the ball in Dad's court and lets LW collect information (which frankly is probably just good information to have about one's friends' needs in general, at least if you eat together a lot!) without putting anyone in the hot seat.

Tangent: I was surprised to hear the number of people who said that they knew or knew of people who were diagnosed with allergies as children and didn't understand why they couldn't have that food. I had a serious food allergy as a kid, and my mom had no trouble coming up with an age-appropriate explanation for me of why I couldn't eat the food in question (and I was pre-school-age at the time!). (Aaaaand now I have this urge to write a series of children's books based around that theme for different allergens and food or other health issues....) (That said, seriously, how hard is it to explain to a kid, "Some people get sick from certain foods, even though other people don't"--- you can even dress it up with, IDK, superhero stories, or something, like, "You and [food] are like Superman and kryptonite--- it doesn't bother other people, but it does bother you.")
sathari: (Anakin- the world's too much)

[personal profile] sathari 2017-08-30 01:25 am (UTC)(link)
Yay! Thanks! I'm glad the Kryptonite suggestion in particular was a hit. ;) And, yeah, I mean, I just couldn't get past the level of a priori pearlclutching from the LW as a separate issue from "what to do if a kid is... well, really, doing anything behind a parent's back." Like, why does LW think that "sneaking food" is such an awful thing to do that they're so deeply upset about it? (Answer: apparently it has to do with LW's own food issues, which they really need not to get all over this other family.)
kaberett: Trans symbol with Swiss Army knife tools at other positions around the central circle. (Default)

[personal profile] kaberett 2017-08-28 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
One of the things I keep tripping over is that the parent didn't notice that the burger that had been ordered didn't contain bacon? And didn't notice child asking different child's parent if she could have the leftovers? And hasn't had any kind of discussion with playmate parents about what is and isn't appropriate?

I'm... honestly wondering if this is "parent A, who is present, is actually completely on board with child eating whatever, but doesn't want to have that fight with parent B, so is intending to tell parent B that child had XYZ '''appropriate''' food ordered for them". Which is still terrible parenting, it's just differently terrible parenting, and That Poor Kid.

Also: THAT IS GROWTH SPURT AGE.
liv: oil painting of seated nude with her back to the viewer (body)

[personal profile] liv 2017-08-29 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm really torn about this one. My first guess was that the dad is starving the 8yo girl. Most likely because he's bought into diet culture and he thinks being chubby is terrible and calorie dense food is terrible. Pessimistically speaking, because he's deliberately abusing the kid, or optimistically because he's basically well-meaning but hasn't noticed that she's at the start of her pre-pubescent growth spurt and the amount of food that's usually adequate is suddenly not. Only in the case of the most optimistic interpretation is drawing the dad's attention to the child's eating behaviours going to do anything good at all.

I really don't agree with Molly's view that children are the exception, obviously, to not commenting on others' manners. I really don't think that's a valid exception. Yes, people should intervene with their friends' children if there's an immediate danger, but that's very different from correcting table manners. If there's a real wellbeing concern, then I think Molly's second scenario is actually preferably to the first: have a discreet word with the dad, NOT in front of the child, about an issue he may not be fully aware of. But in this case, I'm really not convinced this is a problem for the child's physical or mental health, beyond the prejudice that fat people eating tasty things is Bad And Wrong.

Then again, there's a kid in my life who is really food insecure for no (external) reason at all. He's allowed to eat, or refuse to eat, anything he likes, and his parents are really scrupulous about not commenting on his choices or repeating any kind of food shaming talk to him. In spite of having full access and autonomy with food, he takes food from other people, sometimes by grabbing and sometimes by sneaking. I can see an adult acquaintance intervening to protect another child if he were taking their food without permission, but trying to correct his 'bad manners' in his style of eating food he's asked for and been offered would make everything worse.