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agonyaunt2017-08-25 01:49 pm
minoanmiss) wrote in agonyaunt2017-08-25 01:49 pm
Manner Matters: How To Order When Out To Dinner
This column is great -- I have some doozies to post here next week. Meanwhile,there's more than one question in this particular one, actually.
Dear Molly,
I have always believed that when I go to a nice or relatively nice restaurant (let's say any place with entrees over $25), it is appropriate to order at least an appetizer and an entree. For very nice restaurants, I also consider dessert (even if it's to share with my husband) a must. My thought is that the nicer restaurants aren't trying to whisk me in and out, and set up portion sizes and reservation times based on people staying and enjoying their meal. It also seems cheap to me to go to a nice restaurant and not order a decent amount of food (if you don't feel like spending money, don't go to a nice restaurant).
When I go out with my husband, family, or close friends this isn't a problem because we all automatically order appetizers and entrees, and then figure out dessert based on how full we are. The problem comes when I go out with friends or acquaintances that I don't know as well. I want to enjoy myself and order a full meal, but I also don't want to be the only person at my table ordering an appetizer. I feel that it is rude to the others at the table to have to watch me eat my appetizer while they just sit there, but I also feel that it's wrong to not order at least two courses. Is there a right answer here? Am I crazy for thinking ordering multiple courses at a decent restaurant is a must? If I'm not crazy, can you recommend a polite way to encourage others to order both appetizers and entrees?
Thanks for your consideration.
Kind regards,
Out to Dinner
Dear Out to Dinner,
It has been decades ago now that I went to dinner with my grandmother and she ordered two appetizers instead of an appetizer and an entree, and the server simply nodded and confirmed that she wanted them coursed out, with one of the appetizers being served while my friend and I had our main courses. She responded with "See that? That's professional service—he didn't even bat an eye." It opened up a whole new world to me, one in which I wasn't forced to order way more food than I could possibly eat.
While in some cultures (and in another time in our own), there are strict rules about how much to order in what kind of eateries (and it is wise to follow such rules if you want to have a pleasant dining experience), we live under no such requirements in the U.S. Diners must respect the type of restaurant it is—don't go to a tasting-menu only restaurant if you don't want to enjoy multiple courses, and don't expect coursed-out service at a taco stand—but within the offerings and style of the restaurant, I can get a tear in my eye thinking about how free we are to order the amount of food we like.
To put it simply: While I applaud your reverence for the act of fine dining, there is no need to goad your dining companions into ordering more food based on manners. That's the question that's more interesting in your letter: does everyone at the table need to order the same number of courses?
Obviously, it's a more ideal dining situation when people are all eating at the same time. It's not rude to order an appetizer even if others don't, but it will lead to that awkward time when you're eating and others
are still waiting for their food. The solution? Let go of your idea that it's rude not to order an appetizer, and when you're out with people who may not be on the same page in terms of ordering multiple courses, simply ask if they're going to order appetizers and act accordingly. It sounds like you really prefer the longer, more leisurely experience of multiple courses. You may choose where and with whom you eat accordingly. People who like to just order salads? Maybe you meet them at casual cafés.
Of course, you can always try and nudge your companions towards your preference with your own enthusiasm for the meal or specific menu items. You can even adopt the once-verboten-but-now-accepted practice of sharing appetizers. It's not elegant, but it is commonplace for a reason: it
allows people to partake of multiple courses without being overloaded with food. What you can't politely do —and I have no reason to think you want to do so from your lovely letter— is force/bully/guilt people into ordering or eating more food than they like.
Dear Molly,
I have always believed that when I go to a nice or relatively nice restaurant (let's say any place with entrees over $25), it is appropriate to order at least an appetizer and an entree. For very nice restaurants, I also consider dessert (even if it's to share with my husband) a must. My thought is that the nicer restaurants aren't trying to whisk me in and out, and set up portion sizes and reservation times based on people staying and enjoying their meal. It also seems cheap to me to go to a nice restaurant and not order a decent amount of food (if you don't feel like spending money, don't go to a nice restaurant).
When I go out with my husband, family, or close friends this isn't a problem because we all automatically order appetizers and entrees, and then figure out dessert based on how full we are. The problem comes when I go out with friends or acquaintances that I don't know as well. I want to enjoy myself and order a full meal, but I also don't want to be the only person at my table ordering an appetizer. I feel that it is rude to the others at the table to have to watch me eat my appetizer while they just sit there, but I also feel that it's wrong to not order at least two courses. Is there a right answer here? Am I crazy for thinking ordering multiple courses at a decent restaurant is a must? If I'm not crazy, can you recommend a polite way to encourage others to order both appetizers and entrees?
Thanks for your consideration.
Kind regards,
Out to Dinner
Dear Out to Dinner,
It has been decades ago now that I went to dinner with my grandmother and she ordered two appetizers instead of an appetizer and an entree, and the server simply nodded and confirmed that she wanted them coursed out, with one of the appetizers being served while my friend and I had our main courses. She responded with "See that? That's professional service—he didn't even bat an eye." It opened up a whole new world to me, one in which I wasn't forced to order way more food than I could possibly eat.
While in some cultures (and in another time in our own), there are strict rules about how much to order in what kind of eateries (and it is wise to follow such rules if you want to have a pleasant dining experience), we live under no such requirements in the U.S. Diners must respect the type of restaurant it is—don't go to a tasting-menu only restaurant if you don't want to enjoy multiple courses, and don't expect coursed-out service at a taco stand—but within the offerings and style of the restaurant, I can get a tear in my eye thinking about how free we are to order the amount of food we like.
To put it simply: While I applaud your reverence for the act of fine dining, there is no need to goad your dining companions into ordering more food based on manners. That's the question that's more interesting in your letter: does everyone at the table need to order the same number of courses?
Obviously, it's a more ideal dining situation when people are all eating at the same time. It's not rude to order an appetizer even if others don't, but it will lead to that awkward time when you're eating and others
are still waiting for their food. The solution? Let go of your idea that it's rude not to order an appetizer, and when you're out with people who may not be on the same page in terms of ordering multiple courses, simply ask if they're going to order appetizers and act accordingly. It sounds like you really prefer the longer, more leisurely experience of multiple courses. You may choose where and with whom you eat accordingly. People who like to just order salads? Maybe you meet them at casual cafés.
Of course, you can always try and nudge your companions towards your preference with your own enthusiasm for the meal or specific menu items. You can even adopt the once-verboten-but-now-accepted practice of sharing appetizers. It's not elegant, but it is commonplace for a reason: it
allows people to partake of multiple courses without being overloaded with food. What you can't politely do —and I have no reason to think you want to do so from your lovely letter— is force/bully/guilt people into ordering or eating more food than they like.
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I could see approaching things, in the US at least, from the point of view that the tip is based on what people order and that tips are the major source of income for waitstaff in such places. They need people to buy a lot and tip normally, tip at an unusually high rate, or eat and leave rapidly. I'd say that a better solution is to consider what people normally buy and tip based on that in combination with how long one occupies the space even if one buys very little.
(I really hate the idea that waitstaff should depend on tips to survive. It's pretty thoroughly appalling especially given that people can just not tip at all.)
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Ordering an app as an entree is different, obviously. I wouldn't expect sharing then.
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Yeah, that was the weirdest aspect for me. And/or that if it were unshareable/something no one else wanted that everyone would just... silently stare and fume, or something.
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If somebody gets something with citrus in it, I can't eat, but I don't glare daggers at them. LOL
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But honestly, if we're talking restaurants in the US, unless you're eating at a super high end restaurant, the portions are so huge that I pretty much never order an appetizer (even to share) unless that's all I'm getting. The main course is already going to be more than I can eat!
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But even at high end places, apps are almost always designed with the intent to share in my experience.
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As with many "problems," this one is most easily solved by actually talking to people. Like Molly (? I'm not familiar with this column) says, the LW can start by asking others whether they will order appetizers. If they say no, the LW can still say, well, the duck terrine looks appealing to me, are you in a hurry? Do you mind if I order it? Nine times out of 10, everyone will fall over themselves asking the LW to please help him/herself.
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I think it also depends on the people going to the restaurant. Even when I've been to the nicest restaurants with the tiniest amuse bouche with my friends, we've always shared. But I totally can see that other friends groups wouldn't. And sometimes, I'll be like, "This charcuterie plate is all mine, y'all. If you want some, get your own." LOL
So, yes, entirely solvable by talking to each other. :)
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and $25 ain't so fancy they do silly fancy food you need more courses because it's all tin (I lurve the ta#sting menu thing but it is EPIC FAFF and $$$$$$)