Two letters from Digg's Good Question this week

[conuly]

Good Question

1. DEAR HARRIETTE: My 9-year-old daughter recently went over to her friend’s house for a playdate. She was so excited to spend time with her friend, and everything seemed fine when I dropped her off. However, when I went to pick her up, her friend’s mom pulled me aside and made a comment that really caught me off guard. She criticized my parenting style, specifically how my daughter behaved at dinner. Apparently, my daughter didn’t finish all of the food on her plate, and the mom felt that was incredibly rude and a sign of poor manners. She went on to say that in their household, children are expected to eat everything they’re served and suggested I should be more strict at home to instill better manners in my child.

I was honestly shocked. My daughter is generally polite, but like most kids, she can be picky sometimes -- especially when she’s at someone else’s house. I’ve never forced her to eat food she doesn’t like, and I don’t see this as a major issue. I was taken aback by the mom’s approach and felt judged, but I didn’t know how to respond in the moment. Was this mom out of line, or am I missing something about how my daughter should behave when she’s a guest in someone’s home? -- Bad Behavior

DEAR BAD BEHAVIOR: In my estimation, this friend’s mom crossed the line. While it is perfectly normal for families to have their ways of doing things -- including how they eat at the table -- when you have a guest, it is good manners to give them grace. Had your daughter misbehaved by saying something rude, physically hurting someone, cursing or doing something else egregious, I could see why the mom would need to call you out on it. But reprimanding you because your child didn’t eat every morsel on her plate seems extreme.

People have different values and ways of living. This is something your daughter will learn throughout her life. Your job now is to reinforce your values and let her know that she hasn’t violated a family rule by not eating all of the food on her plate. Further, you can tell the mother that, while you appreciate that she felt that she had to inform you of your daughter’s behavior, you strongly disagree with her. In your home, you do not force food down your daughter’s throat.

Link one

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2. DEAR ABBY: We have vegetarian and vegan friends. Over the years, when we have invited them over for a celebration, we (omnivores) always make sure to include dishes that they will enjoy. But when they invite guests for dinner, they never -- ever -- include a meat dish, not even a piece of chicken.

I have asked around and, apparently, that's the experience of everyone. Don't you think a little reciprocity is in order? As it is, the hospitality rule seems decidedly one-sided. If the vegans worry about (to them) inedible leftovers, they can always provide a doggy bag for their guests. -- ONE-SIDED IN THE WEST

DEAR ONE-SIDED: Please consider this your wake-up call. Many vegans and vegetarians do not want meat, chicken or fish in their kitchens. If, in addition to what they provide, you feel the need to consume animal protein, consume some before you go to their home or afterward. If this does not suit you, respond to their invitation with polite regrets.

Link two

Comments

[conuly]

1. So, first things first, it's setting your kid up for an eating disorder or three to expect them to clean their plate at every meal.

But secondly, how rude can this woman be? People with good manners do not stare at other people's plates while they eat - and, in my experience, unless a child's behavior is egregiously bad, nobody ever says anything to the parents other than that they wish their own kids acted so well! Like, I honestly am shocked by the very idea of tattling on a kid for something so stupid. This isn't violent behavior, or gratuitously cruel, or in any way something that the parents need to be made aware of. WTF.

2. Lots of people eat lots of things I don't eat, like brains, or bugs, or mushrooms. I'm not obligated to cook any of that in my home just because some people like to eat those things at every meal. They can come over for the company or they can stay home.

[ambyr]

I have had vegetarian friends who felt compelled by politeness to provide a meat option. Let me tell you, meat cooked by someone unused to cooking meat and unable to taste test their concoction is not a route to a delicious dinner. Why do you want your veggie friends to do this, LW? Setting aside the fact that they have no obligation to do so, you won't like the end result if they cook meat they don't want to cook.

[ioplokon]

Yeah basically this. I haven't cooked meat in 20 years, so I doubt it would go well.

If it's that big of a deal, though, LW could host more potlucks. Then everyone can bring what they like...

[dissectionist]

Omnivores can eat anything they’re not sensitive to. Vegetarians can’t, and vegans have an even more restrictive diet. That’s why, if we’re omnivores inviting them over, we provide things they can eat within their diets. However, as omnivores we can eat anything including vegetarian options, so being provided vegetarian or vegan food to eat is perfectly fine.

If you’re an obligate carnivore, then sure, there’s a problem with going over to eat at a vegan’s house and not being served meat. But if that’s the case, then you’re some kind of cat and you’re not writing into advice columns..

[haggis]

I have friends who have limited food choices (for texture reasons etc) who would struggle if the only food available is veggie/vegan but they generally plan other kind of social meet ups,for that reason.

[conuly]

Also, I kinda feel like most people, if told "For legitimate reasons I sincerely can't eat any of those foods, I'm gonna have to either decline or bring my own food which may include meat" will, if they love those other people, said fine to one of those two options.

[dissectionist]

Yep, food sensitivities (whether texture, taste, gastrointestinal reaction, intolerance, allergy, etc) can definitely put a damper on things. But as with your friends, those of us in those boats know to plan ahead (which usually means bringing our own food to eat or avoiding social outings based on food).

I grew up with severe food intolerances (I wouldn’t go anaphylactic but I’d be sick for weeks after an exposure). It’s the pits to be a little kid at a party, watching everyone else eat all the cake, ice cream, and candy you can’t have. Thankfully ice creams that were safe for me were developed when I was in later elementary school, so after that I brought a Thermos of my own ice cream to parties. My mom also took up baking so she could make safe cakes for me, and she’d make me a little mini-cake I could bring to eat while the others shared the party cake. That really did help, even though I felt a little weird because my stuff was different from everyone else’s.

As much as adult social life often involves food, I think it’s even more food-driven for kids. And it’s easier on us adults anyway because we have more experience with developing equanimity around our struggles: Not being able to eat stuff now doesn’t affect me in nearly the same way that it did when I was little, and I don’t feel any embarrassment about bringing my own food now.

[cimorene]

It might be rude if they knew the meat eaters didn't eat any vegetables, but if they have no dietary restrictions, it's fine. The hosts are obliged only to provide a meal that they believe will be consumable, not to have it conform to specific expectations. That's why airlines offer special diet meals but not one of every popular meat in case someone doesn't like pork or chicken. That's why it's normal to expect vegetarian food when invited for dinner, but not to expect that the meal will definitely include turkey instead of lasagna.

[ashbet]

I can't imagine asking a vegan to cook meat -- if I want it THAT badly, I can grab fast food on the way there/afterward.

(I can't maintain a vegetarian/vegan diet full-time -- I don't want to restrict food that way, and a lot of the combos to create complete proteins don't agree with me for more than a meal or two in a row, but I certainly am capable of enjoying a vegetarian or vegan dinner with friends!)

And those parents are setting their kid/s up for an eating disorder . . . not to mention being unspeakably rude about LW's daughter!

[sushiflop]

Jeez I'm feeling for LW's daughter's friend, honestly. Forced to clean her plate even if she's full, but I have zero doubts that if mom ever felt her daughter needed to lose weight, that kid would be absolutely henpecked and criticized for everything she ate. Not good.

[lilysea]

Ugh.

I have multiple traumatic experiences about being forced to eat all the food on my plate.

(in at least one case it was my father being like, "you can't leave this table until the plate of [food that makes you feel like you are going to vomit]is empty, and if you try to leave this table against my wishes I will force you to stay at the table with violence"

it is not appropriate to force kids to empty their plate unless you're in some kind of imminent life and death situation,

like you're lost in the wilderness, or your car has broken down in the wilderness,

or you're in the middle of a famine that is so big that it will one day have its own Wikipedia entry.

[kiezh]

LW1 should ask their daughter some questions to find out if her friend's mom was aggressive and inappropriate with her at dinner (extremely bad) or saved it up for the parent (less bad but still reflects poorly on the mom, who should not be policing a guest's food intake).

When I was a kid, I experienced being harangued at dinner by an adult who wanted me to ignore food sensitivities and "clean my plate"; being the kid I was, I critiqued her violations of the principles of hospitality in return, which... did not make matters less contentious. 😆 But I maintain even decades later that I was RIGHT and she behaved abominably toward a guest in her home. (And quite rudely toward everyone else trying to eat a meal while she threw her power-tripping fit right at the table.)

Anyway, my parents backed me on the subject of "I have the ultimate authority on what goes in my mouth," and LW1 needs to make sure their kid knows they'll back her and she doesn't have to hurt herself to satisfy an adult's ego. Unfortunately the poor kid(s) who live with that petty inhospitable control-freak cannot be saved from her food-policing. I wish them luck in avoiding eating disorders and other health issues.

[minoanmiss]

I was about to say this but you said it better.

[firecat]

I am an omnivore but many of my meals are vegetarian, and I prefer to eat vegetarian when I’m with vegetarian friends. Sometimes they seem to strongly want me to have meat when we eat together. I’m not sure if this is a kind of politeness, or a concern that I’ll suffer if I don’t have meat at every meal, or a desire to vicariously enjoy my eating meat. I’d be willing to accommodate the last, but I’d like to sidestep the first two. Sometimes I’ve tried to talk to them about it but it doesn’t seem to take. (Not seeking advice. It’s just…”manners” are weird and fraught sometimes.)

[mrissa]

Does LW2 think that vegetarianism is just really, really liking vegetables or what? Do they extend this to friends with celiac needing to cook something with wheat, or with a peanut allergy something with peanuts? To people who keep kosher having to make them shrimp wrapped in bacon or something like that? What even?

[minoanmiss]

This, so much this, wtf.

[conuly]

It is very likely they do, in fact, extend at least somewhat in all those directions. People really suck.

[pauraque]

I find it interesting that vegans are the ones who are stereotyped as being weird and pressuring about dietary choices, when in my experience it's more often meat-eaters who cannot stop being weird and pressuring about it.

[conuly]

It's always the meat-eaters. I mean, I can believe some newbie veg*ns are dicks about it, because new converts often are (doubly so if they're young) but the way people talk you'd think a vegan had personally murdered their dog.

[moem]

Murdered it, and then not even eaten it.

[conuly]

So wasteful.

[minoanmiss]

Yeah as a meat eater I largely agree. I do reserve the right to think it’s out of line to tell Black people that factory farming is worse than slavery though (that was a letter a while ago)

[topaz_eyes]

Re #1: When I was a kid, one time I stayed overnight at my best friend's house, her mom served pork shoulder for dinner. A lot of pork upsets my stomach. I ate what I could, but didn't finish. Her mom said nothing--but she saved what I left on my plate and served it to me for lunch next day while everyone else ate sandwiches.

I was so embarrassed--but I couldn't say anything to anyone because this was when you were expected to eat whatever was put in front of you. Plus I'd get in trouble with my parents if I complained. I am so so glad this behaviour and attitude is now considered wrong-headed.

Re #2: Dear Abby, thank you for calling out the bullshit that is food privilege. LW will not get sick or die if they don't eat meat for one meal.

[frenzy]

For food safety's sake, I don't think the omnivores want vegetarians nor vegans cooking meat. (WHAT IS THE SAFE TEMPERATURE? I DONT KNOW? I DONT HAVE A MEAT THERMOMETER? HOW DO I KNOW WHEN CHICKEN IS DONE? I DONT KNOW!)

[ambyr]

I love my best friend, but she has been vegetarian since early childhood, and I regularly have to remind her when she's at my house and I'm cooking a mixed meal (meat for me, veggie for her) that she cannot just grab the knife and cutting board I used to chop up the raw chicken and start slicing salad veggies until I wash it.

[conuly]

Ew.

[melannen]

I'm not really sure what #1 is going for with " let her know that she hasn’t violated a family rule by not eating all of the food on her plate." She has violated a family rule - just not your family's - and that's an important distinction to have!

It's unclear from the letter whether the kid even knows what's going on, though. If you ask the kid how it went and they don't say anything, it might be better to just leave it be - the mom may not have even said anything in the moment, just silently judged your parenting.

But especially if the kid does have anything to say about the other mom's food rules, it might be a good chance to talk to the kid about being a guest and host, and how as a guest you should always make an effort to be extra polite and to be gracious about the food even if it's not your favorite, and so on, and that some houses may have different rules or customs and when you're a guest it's polite to do your best to abide by the other house's rules. But also that as a host you are also supposed to be polite and understanding of the fact that a guest might be used to different ways of doing things, and to be more lenient with them than you would if they weren't a guest. And that not everybody is good at being a polite guest or a polite host but as long as you've done your best to be polite, the other person's rudeness isn't your responsibility. And so on.

[kiezh]

I think it's also important to emphasize for kids that polite is not the most important thing to be. If it would cause her pain or distress to eat something, she's not obligated to eat it; politeness has given way to safety and health, which are higher concerns. And if someone wants you to sacrifice *your* safety and health for the sake of *their* family rules about politeness... they have violated hospitality so badly that you owe them nothing.

[melannen]

It's definitely worth emphasizing that politeness does not extend to eating something that would make you sick (or, generally, letting yourself be forced to do anything that would be truly harmful to you!) But learning how to refuse politely is an important skill, even if what you're refusing is an allergen or something - it will, if nothing else, generally make it much more likely your refusal will be accepted without escalating, if you learn how to make it in a polite way. It can also make it much easier to refuse if you have a polite script to do it with rather than scrambling with awkwardness in the moment. And it's really useful to think about the line between "I have to refuse this no matter what", "I could do this but I really really don't want to do this and anyone who tries to make me is being rude themself" and "I don't want to do this but it's something I'm willing to do to make a friend happy or smooth a social interaction". The more you know where your lines are in advance, the less likely you are to be forced into choosing between rudeness and something that will harm you in the moment.

In the example in the letter, a kid who as a guest knows how to linger over a meal and then say "Oh dear, this is delicious but if I eat any more I will be sick" in the locally socially acceptable way is likely to get a lot less friction from the adults than a kid who eats three bites and then pushes their plate away and says "I don't want it yuck."

And ~9 is exactly the developmental age to be working on the more advanced versions of all of those. (Kids in general often need help figuring out the line between "I don't want to but I will for a good reason" and "It's not worth it for any reason", and a lot of adults tend to swing way too far one way or the other with younger kids and then expect them to just know the difference when they get older.)

(Should you have to be polite and gracious about saying "I can't eat that, it will kill me?" when you're a guest? If the choice is eat it or be rude obviously be rude! And sometimes you're at a point where being polite is beyond your capacity and it's nobody's fault. But you should always be polite and gracious when you have the option, and having a medical reason to refuse doesn't remove the option to be polite.)

[jack]

> we (omnivores) always make sure to include dishes that they will enjoy

I wonder if they literally mean, dishes they enjoy, or if they just mean, "dishes they can eat, rather than eating nothing at all".

Likewise, I wonder if they LIKE the meals they're served in a vegetarian household. Do they dislike the food, or just feel that having meat is "normal" so would be polite to provide it.

I have friends who DO find it hard or impossible to eat without meat because of medical/dietary needs/restrictions. If I invite them (or anyone) I check requirements. Sometimes we can find a vegetarian meal that works for them. Sometimes there's some meat we're ok with in the house (eg a casual order pizza party). Sometimes we have to arrange something other than the dinner. If OP genuinely feels bad without appropriate food, it would be reasonable to ask the friends what the menu is and see if there's any alternative that works for both. But if they just feel providing meat should be automatic politeness, they should probably focus on the meal they are getting.