The columnists are nicer than I am, and more helpful too

[conuly]

1. Dear Care and Feeding,

This is a bit of a weird question, but I’m not sure how to ask it to anyone I know IRL. When is it developmentally appropriate for children to begin swearing? I have a 6-year-old daughter, “Sophie,” who plays chess (at a very high level for her age). She plays competitively (she has a coach and everything). I am proud of her, and I want to encourage her if this is something she wants to do, but I’ve noticed that when she makes a bad move and realizes it, she’ll often snap out, “Rats.” I don’t even really consider that cursing, but the tone and context she uses it in definitely makes me think along those lines. She’s my only child, so I don’t have much to go on except some instinct and what I see in some other people’s children, but this does seem young to be expressing frustration in this way. On the other hand, she’s already doing at least one activity that is unusual for her age, so maybe this comes with the territory. Is this something I should worry about?

—Hitting Unpleasant Milestones

Dear Hitting,


“Rats” isn’t a swear word, no matter what tone it’s used in. It is, however, a substitute for a swear word (just like “sugar,” “gosh darn it,” and “dang”), and thus a way for her to express frustration—or irritation, disappointment, or maybe even anger (with herself, it sounds like). Do you want your 6-year-old not to express those feelings? Or are you wishing for her not to feel them? Good luck with the latter. It’s impossible. Life has downs as well as ups, even for young children. As to the former: Do you want her to stifle her unpleasant feelings? To learn to express her frustration “nicely” or politely? (Like, instead of a substitute swear word: “Oh, dear, I believe I’ve made a mistake. What a pity”?) Please allow her her “rats.” (Personally, I’d allow a sotto voce actual curse word, but that’s just me. And Anne Lamott. One of my favorite anecdotes about her son Sam when he was a child involves her overhearing him say, about a broken toy, “Please, God, fix this broken goddamn car.”) Teaching a child to suppress their “bad” feelings leads to no good. Indeed, it leads to very bad.

—Michelle

Link one

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2. DEAR MISS MANNERS: My wife and I just held a destination wedding in Europe. We’re quite international, so friends and family flew in from across the globe.

We had regularly communicated how to use our wedding website for the schedule and other information, which also had a very clear registry tab with cash funds and physical gifts. We prefaced the registry by saying, “Your presence is enough, but if you would like to provide a gift, below are some experiences and items we’d love.”

Of the 100 attending, perhaps only 20% contributed in any fashion. (Some invitees who could not attend contributed, too.)

My wife and I were shocked at how few guests gave a gift, as our outlook would be to never attend a wedding without providing a congratulatory gift. Even for a destination wedding, the symbolism of helping the couple start the next chapter seems appropriate to us.

Are we off base for expecting more?

GENTLE READER: Oh, yes. You are expecting them not to believe that their presence -- having flown in from around the globe -- is enough, even though you told them it was.

Mind you, Miss Manners is not saying that travel expenses are sufficient payment for destination weddings. Rather, she is saying that it is unseemly to expect any payment from guests at any wedding. Your pretending that you do not expect anything, while declaring what you want to receive, is not fooling anyone.

As you made that statement about presence being enough, you should try to live up to it.

Link two

Comments

[conuly]

For reference, my responses run like this:

1. Most children start using language like this around age 3. Your daughter is actually pretty behind the curve here!

2. Why on earth would you write Miss Manners about this?

[lilysea]

Re: wedding gifts, my feelings are

a) even for a local wedding, gifts are a nice thing, but no a mandatory requirement. The age at which a lot of people friends get married = the same age where a lot of people are struggling with student loans, rent and/or just got kicked off their parents health insurance because they turned 25 or 26.

b) for a wedding where people travelled overseas,

the fact that people spent $$$$ of their own money and also their precious very limited vacation days to attend your wedding IS the present!!!!!

[magid]

Exactly this! Travel is expensive, plus wedding clothes if you don't already own them, and lots of folks only have 2-3 weeks of vacation that they might choose to use on their own travel/events.

[likeaduck]

2. Yes whyyy? Miss Manners is so consistent that gifts are never obligatory.

[minoanmiss]

1 made me laugh aloud and also reminded me that I have a letter to post here where parents of a 3 year old worry that giving her a play kitchen will doom her to being a tradwife.

2 should be dribbled like basketballs.

[mrissa]

When I saw that it was "rats," I literally snapped out, "Oh for Chrissake," out loud alone in my office.

It's clear to me that some people have zero memory of being a child and have imposed a vision of it being a constant joy of floating through an untroubled existence as a little angel. Actual childhood, instead, is experienced by fellow human beings who are allowed to notice that occasionally things are not ideal.

[full_metal_ox]

Girls, in particular, are expected to be so nice and so sweet and so inoffensive—-after all, they have to be the brake on boys’ impulses as well as their own!

[lilysea]

My feeling is that kids should be allowed to swear

1. as long as they are swearing at a situation, and not at person

so saying "shit!"/"damn!"/"bloody hell!"/"fuck!" when they stub their toe or drop a brick on their foot is fine

but saying "you are a little shit" to their classmate is NOT okay

A speech about how, these words are perfectly okay words, but teachers get unreasonably weird if you use them at school, so don't use them at school, would also be a good idea

2. and as long as they avoid slurs. It is never ever okay to use words about race/ethnic identity/sexuality/gender identity as put downs, insults

[dabbleswithpoisons]

That was pretty much my parents' stance, and it worked out fine.
Kids are mostly perfectly capable of understanding that some stuff that's okay at home is Not For School, and being allowed to swear when appropriate at home makes it less exciting, frankly.
I mean, aside from the fact that *rats* is in no way swearing, so OP's actual issue appears to be that her kid shouldn't be expressing frustration? Whole can of worms there.

[magid]

.... or a can of rats?
::ducks::

[dabbleswithpoisons]

XD

[azurelunatic]

Yes, if Mumsy prohibits darling little Angelica from saying "Rats!", she should only be so lucky if the sweet moppet does not catch actual rats and release them in the house, by way of substitution...

[redbird]

The phrasing "developmentally appropriate" had me expecting either (a) LW's child is swearing and their friends/classmates aren't, or vice versa, or (b) being upset that the child is saying things like "shit" or at least "damn it," rather than something like "rats!" Even Winnie the Pooh said "bother!" which is surprisingly satisfying, I think because of both the sound and because it doesn't feel like a euphemism the way "darn it!"

[lilysea]

If I had responsibility to a child who was saying "rats!" I would probably introduce them to a wide range of old-timey swear words

"Odds Bodkin!" and so on

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/262450.html

[fox]

It was either my dad or my uncle who taught me to say "odds bodkins" when I was a very young trained pony toddler.

[joyeuce]

My daughter went through a phase of choosing her own "swear words"; I remember at one point she would exclaim, "Oh, capacity!" when frustrated. I used to say, "Oh, damson jam!" which I picked up from my grandmother.

[fox]

My 7yo has spent the past couple of weeks saying "What the sigma?"

[hashiveinu]

This is apparently very common Gen Alpha slang.

[castiron]

Gen Alpha enough that my Gen Z kid occasionally uses it ironically.

[lilysea]

I once got my mouth violently washed out by my mother with foul tasting soap and a scrubbing brush for saying "bloody", and it made me deeply determined

a) to swear whenever I damn well felt like it

b) to champion the right of children, teenagers, and adults to swear forever

[lilysea]

I'm now thinking

if LW saw the range of tshirts you can buy that have

CUNTALICIOUS printed across the front in big clear letters,

would they faint dead away?

(Shirts were designed and printed by a feminist who wanted to reclaim the word)

[dissectionist]

My MIL is a rather reserved person, and has not always been my biggest supporter; our relationship could be fractious at times due to conflicts between her repressed personality and mine. One of my favorite moments was when she was visiting us and she accidentally dropped something on her foot, provoking her to involuntarily say, “Shit!” My two-year-old was nearby and immediately mimicked her, repeating the word gleefully for days. She was horrified that she’d been the cause of his first curse word, whereas I found it utterly hilarious that now she’d never be able to blame me for that offense (whether or not he learned it from me, if she hadn’t been the cause she would have believed it was me) after he inevitably started cursing.

[princessofgeeks]

One less thing! that she can criticize you for!

Hurray!

[dissectionist]

It’s a good thing I wasn’t around to see it happen (my SO reported the event to me later, since he was there) because if I had been, I’d have been unable to stop myself from laughing. And then she would have blamed me for my laughter encouraging my kid. 😂 But as it was, she had nobody to blame but herself!

[minoanmiss]

cheers

[azurelunatic]

Oh, how delightful!

[ethelmay]

Someone wasn't brought up on Peanuts, and it shows.

[full_metal_ox]

And what else is there to say when you get a sack of rocks for trick-or-treat? (Or does Generation Alpha even do that any more?)

[green_grrl]

The columnists are nicer than I am, and more helpful too

Truth in advertising! The columnists did a superb job of saying “Do not stunt your child’s emotional growth” and “Do not be a hypocritical Greedy Gus” without actually saying those (well deserved) things.

[liv]

I'm honestly more worried about a 6yo playing competitive chess than I am about what language she uses, quite aside from the fact that 'rats' is an extremely mild word. It's not that it's always wrong to encourage a child prodigy to excel, but I wish the LW had more serious parenting questions than 'should I let my 6yo curse?'

Also, I've encountered pre-verbal children who swear, using a specific sound to express frustration with the intonation and body language of an adult swearing. It's all part of language development, including the extremely frustrating to caregivers phase of not fully understanding that different language is appropriate in different circumstances.

[melannen]

Most weddings I've been to, I would absolutely bring a gift, and some I would put in a cash gift if requested, even if they said it wasn't needed.

But LW if y'all can afford a fancy destination wedding, y'all don't *need* my help to get started in life, and I'm going to believe you when you say you don't want it.

[conuly]

If I see "no presents necessary" I translate that as "none wanted", and even though I'd bring a gift normally I definitely won't then.

[azurelunatic]

And in this case, I would faithfully believe that I probably could not afford the kind of dishware that LW2 would want.