conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2023-10-17 01:01 am

Why are men

I am a woman in perimenopause. I struggle with brain fog, among other symptoms. In conversation, I sometimes explain what’s going on while it’s happening: “Ugh, I am struggling to remember the right word. It’s one of the symptoms of my perimenopause.” Verbalizing my experience helps me to relax and stay open during the interaction. I have noticed a trend, though: Male friends and co-workers — no women, so far — often respond with some version of: “No, that’s not what’s going on with you.” I want to say something that draws attention to the fact that they have just inserted themselves where they don’t belong. Any suggestions?

N.


Let me come back to the mansplaining after I compliment you for doing something brave and wonderful: By mentioning your perimenopause — the transition toward the end of a woman’s reproductive years, often marked by challenging physical and emotional symptoms — you are helping to destigmatize one of the most common and neglected problems facing women in middle age. It also helps you to cope!

Now, these male friends and co-workers are certainly off base, and probably annoying. My hunch is that many of them think they are complimenting you by arguing that you couldn’t be perimenopausal: You’re too young for that! (I know — ageist as heck, and symptoms can begin as early as the mid-30s.) Their intentions are also no excuse for denying your actual experience, whether that includes brain fog, hot flashes or mood swings.

Try to be patient, if you can: “I’m afraid you’re wrong. I can send you some information about it.” It’s an unfair burden, but it may be more useful here to increase awareness of the issue than to smack down a few mansplainers. (You may disagree!) I also urge women to talk to their employers about accommodations for debilitating symptoms and to explore with their doctors whether treatments, such as hormone replacement therapy, may be helpful.

Link
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[personal profile] caramarie 2023-10-17 05:48 am (UTC)(link)
Yeesh to those commenters.

(I have learned quite a lot about one of my coworker's perimenopause symptoms, in the context of perfectly normal conversations like 'complaining about office temperatures' or 'will you have a glass of wine', and I do actually appreciate how open she is about it!)
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2023-10-17 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
It might be inappropriate to share symptoms involving blood or sweat or something at work, but not being able to remember a word is the furthest thing from a gross physical detail.
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[personal profile] nineveh_uk 2023-10-17 08:48 am (UTC)(link)
When men work around other men they never talk about ED or prostate or pee issues.

Oh, I bet older men sometimes make reference to more frequent need to go for a pee in relevant work contexts! But agree, this is about menopause and breastfeeding getting put in a dirty/sex class and thus unsuitable to even mention, vs hayfever, asthma, your manly ACL injury acquired playing sport etc.

Indeed, my workplace menopause 'case studies' page has an example of a man talking about hormone therapy for prostate cancer, and the things he needed to tell his colleagues about. Like needing to pee more frequently.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-10-17 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)

When men work around other men they never talk about ED or prostate or pee issues.

I have been part of the furniture where all the real people in the room were men. This is a lie. All the responses depress me but this one enraged me.

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[personal profile] cimorene 2023-10-17 10:57 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, I was expecting suggestions for a better way to shut them down and the comments are all "how dare you allude to the well-known fact that women menstruate and then stop menstruating, thus reminding us that there is hypothetical blood in some other time and place!" Sometimes I despair.
Edited 2023-10-17 10:57 (UTC)
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[personal profile] kiezh 2023-10-17 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
I might go with a sarcastic, "wow, since when are you my doctor?" or "I think I know my own medical issues, thanks" and then a subject change. Or possibly start infodumping like a wikipedia article if they won't take the subject change gracefully.
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[personal profile] shanaqui 2023-10-17 11:50 am (UTC)(link)

Nobody has ever even blinked when I apologised that I'm struggling to find words because of my medication*. In fact, the explanation chilled things out some. So clearly there is, in at least some contexts, a social expectation that you explain what's going on when you're obviously struggling, lest it be thought "weird".

So people are just getting shitty because the explanation is something they don't like to think about.

Possibly I'd be more vague about it (in both the situation I originally mentioned and if it were due to perimenopause), personally, and just say "I'm sorry, I have a bit of brain fog for medical reasons", but that's a personal choice and I don't see that there's a problem with being frank.

* Pregabalin, you little shit.

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[personal profile] ellen_fremedon 2023-10-17 02:27 pm (UTC)(link)
"A personal medical issue" is not untrue and it's good phrasing if LW doesn't want to mention her perimenopause. But if she's okay talking about it, it seems kinder to her co-workers to explain that her brain fog is due to a normal and non-life-threatening condition than to leave them worrying. (Though these particular co-workers may have forfeited the right to that much consideration.)
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2023-10-17 09:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Plus "personal medical issue" is generic enough to cover dementia. I see no problem with saying it's perimenopause.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-10-17 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)

I 99% cheer for LW for mentioning and thus helping to destigmatize perimenopause. It will take me longer to explain the 1%. When one mentions something one does put it on the table for discussion, including refutation. It's deeply annoying of these men to refute her experience of her own life (also very characteristic) but it is a potential response.

ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2023-10-17 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
They aren't refuting it, they're just telling her she's wrong.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-10-17 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)

I thought that that was refuting meant, to say that a given statement statement (in LW's case, her statement that she is having brain fog due to perimenopause) is wrong. I'm always up for improving my vocab!

Edited 2023-10-17 20:46 (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2023-10-17 10:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, your meaning is also in Merriam-Webster, and anyway I was being pedantic and kind of rude, for which I apologize. But the first definition, which I take to be the original one, is "to prove wrong by argument or evidence; show to be false or erroneous." Unfortunately using it the second way makes the first definition not work, if you see what I mean. I think possibly that usage got started with people confusing "refute" with "repudiate" (to refuse to accept, to reject as untrue or unjust).
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2023-10-17 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)

You are generally a good egg so I forgive you :). More sertiptsly I see what you mean, since the point is that they may obnoxiously disbelieve her but they cannot prove her wrong and should not try.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2023-10-18 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
According to the OED, you are correct that the second definition is later (1880s vs. 1540s), that it likely came about because the word was conflated with "repudiate", and that it is often considered prescriptively incorrect.

transitive. To reject (an allegation, assertion, report, etc.) as without foundation; to repudiate.

Criticized as erroneous in usage guides in the 20th cent. In many instances it is unclear whether there is an implication of argument accompanying the assertion that something is baseless (making the use sense 2)." (Sense 2 being your sense 1.)


That said, descriptively speaking, I've seen that sense so many times that when you refuted the notion that what LW's coworkers were doing was refuted, I had to squint and think hard before I figured out what you were objecting to. ;)

As for "repudiate", I would also have a hard time using that word here; to me it has a much stronger sense of "refuse to be associated with." While it can be used in the "this is wrong" sense, the OED agrees that most definitions involve some form of dissociation.

I think the word I personally would use is "reject."
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-17 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Earlier this year I got referred to a gynecologist to discuss my perimenopausal difficulties. The gyno, who turned out to be a dude in his 60s, informed me that whatever I’m dealing with is from other causes, because “perimenopause isn’t real, it’s a made-up social-media diagnosis” and “menopausal effects don’t kick in until after menopause, because that’s when the estrogen drop occurs”.

He was so certain and so unyielding that I quickly stopped trying to argue with him about the gradual decrease in estrogen during perimenopause (and resultant gradual increase in symptoms for many perimenopausal people). It was just a waste of my time, so I moved on to my pap smear and got the hell out of there.

If LW’s coworkers are anything like that gyno, good luck for them even glancing at any information sent before they drop it in the trash can or delete the email.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-17 03:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, and if anyone needs a good resource about perimenopause (including in trans femme folks who are forced to stop taking hormones) that doesn’t assume all perimenopausal people are women, I strongly recommend “What Fresh Hell Is This?: Perimenopause, Menopause, Other Indignities, and You” by Heather Corinna. It also goes into detail about how health issues and traumatic experiences can affect the experience of perimenopause.
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[personal profile] castiron 2023-10-17 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
What an idiot that doctor was. I suppose he believes that there's no hormonal things going on pre-menarche or post-menarche either.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-17 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I’ve tried reporting doctors for far more (like outright lying to patients and committing bodily harm) and gotten nowhere in my province, so by now I don’t bother. (CN: upcoming references to assault by a doctor.) My previous gyno (prior to this one that I talked about) assaulted several patients, got away with nothing more than having to do an ethics course, then assaulted multiple *more* patients and now has finally had his license… suspended for six months. 🙃 Not taken away for assaulting more than half a dozen patients, just suspended for awhile. And he has to do another ethics course.

So yeah. Considering how little my province cares about doctors actually assaulting people, they’re not going to care even remotely that I got told I wasn’t perimenopausal.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-17 06:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oops, I was wrong in my remembering. It was a actually four-month suspension for harming ten more patients (on top of the original few that resulted in the first ethics course). *And* he additionally pissed off the review board by refusing to allow inspections of his medical clinic, so that was part of the complaint that resulted in his four-month suspension. (My more cynical side wonders how much of his punishment has to do with the fact that he refused their examiners entry to his clinic, as versus the fact that he harmed ten women.)
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2023-10-17 09:35 pm (UTC)(link)
...holy crap.

(He's very wrong. In several ways.)
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[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2023-10-18 01:21 am (UTC)(link)
Ugh. [personal profile] rachelmanija saw a female (!) RN who didn't know about or believe in perimenopause, and she was also told that she couldn't have hormone-related symptoms until after she had gone 12 months without menstruating. "Because first menstruation stops, and then the reproductive system starts breaking down," as one of the aggravated commenters to her post remarked.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-18 02:26 pm (UTC)(link)
The idea that it takes exactly twelve months, like the entire reproductive system is a ticking timebomb with a year-long timer that starts the day menstruation ceases, is so ridiculous as to be hilarious.

But then I remember that this idea is being used to deny access to care to people, and it just becomes depressing again.
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[personal profile] lethe1 2023-10-18 09:14 am (UTC)(link)
Ugh, why is that guy a gynaecologist if he doesn't take women seriously?
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-18 02:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Not everyone who sees a gynecologist is a woman (I’m not). But yeah, I don’t doubt that some paternalist misogyny plays into the way he interacts with his patients.
katiedid717: (Default)

[personal profile] katiedid717 2023-10-17 10:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe I'll feel differently about this in ~10 years, but I don't understand why the LW can't just say "I'm drawing a blank" instead of assigning it to her perimenopause. But I also try to avoid talking about my personal life (including health issues) at work.
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[personal profile] ethelmay 2023-10-17 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, she could. But once she has happened to say something about a health issue, people shouldn't be jumping down her throat about it, either. Tangentially related anecdote: I had a teacher once who had an unusual hearing problem that he could mostly compensate for, so we kept forgetting about it, but every so often there was in fact something he had trouble with, and he would bark impatiently, all in one breath, "Speak up please I'm partially deaf." Clearly he had had kids argue with him that he couldn't actually be hard of hearing, and he was damned if he was going to leave any opening for that, not so much as a comma or a self-deprecating tone. At the time I thought he was being rude to us, but now I have more sympathy.
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[personal profile] katiedid717 2023-10-17 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree, it is completely inappropriate for her coworkers to argue with her about her health. I think my opinion on this may also be skewed because I'm currently applying/interviewing for jobs, and it feels like I have to be so careful with certain topics because employers will still find ways to discriminate based on sex/gender, race, marital status, disability, etc. It can be such a juggling act.

Oof, I can empathize with the teacher; I have intermittent tinnitus that gets worse with stress and while I can usually mask it with soft music or something, there are days where it's like a drill is running inside my skull. Definitely have times where it's harder to focus on things being said to me because of it.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-18 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Speaking as A Disabled(tm), if something is a thing that happens on occasion, you can get away with not providing an explanation. But if something is happening frequently and you don’t provide an explanation, people will start to notice, gossip about it amongst themselves, and come up with their own possibilities. “Perimenopause” is far more benign than, say, coworkers wondering if you’re having such difficulty thinking because you’re stoned out of your gourd.
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[personal profile] katiedid717 2023-10-18 02:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's a good point. Back when I worked with my family, we were on dementia-watch with my uncle behind his back because he was showing symptoms but refused to go to a doctor. Turned out it was just Lyme Disease and things for better once he was on medication, but I can definitely see how something like that it would be especially difficult in a larger non-family company
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2023-10-18 02:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I’m so glad it turned out to be a cause that could be successfully addressed with treatment (and he did eventually seek medical care).
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[personal profile] katiedid717 2023-10-18 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
It was actually kind of funny once everything was settled, he'd been having different cognitive issues for the most part, but he went to the dermatologist for a rash and that was how he ended up getting put on the medication and diagnosed with Lyme disease