conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2023-07-02 06:19 pm

(no subject)

Dear Amy: I had a 42-year career as a speech-language pathologist, working with young children. Early childhood development was my professional specialty. I made sure to provide my own children with play-based preschool opportunities. As they grew and showed interest in certain activities, we provided those opportunities for them in art, music and sports. Both children are now successful professionals.

Our son and his wife are the parents of two children, ages 3 and 1. They let us know early on that they would accept no input or support, even when they shared their struggles and challenges. Not even a book suggestion was welcome. I have respected their wishes, and I respond to texts, e-mails and rare phone calls with generic positive statements like, “Thanks for sharing that photo!” and “It looks like he’s doing great!”

Now, our daughter-in-law is sending photos and videos of our 3-year-old granddaughter in a peewee “cheer” program. She is on a “performance team,” complete with uniforms with short-shorts and bare midriffs. For the competitions, she wears full makeup, including bright red lipstick. Her parents haven’t enrolled her in a regular preschool yet, but they apparently are fine with this environment.

I have not responded to the most recent “cheer” photos and am not sure how to approach my son and his wife about my concerns. I am sick to my stomach that this child is not receiving typical child-focused, play-based learning opportunities – and worse, that she has been put into a program that appears to me to be sexualizing young girls, to their future detriment.

I feel I must speak up and advocate for this child by trying to protect her childhood. How should I do this?


Dear Horrified: You may speak up for this child by using your voice, or your pen or your opposable thumbs. When you do, you should prepare yourself for the likelihood that these parents will react badly, cut you off, and continue exercising their judgment without regard for your views.

I happen to share your opinion, as well as your concerns, regarding toddler “cheer” squads, “beauty” pageants, and the like. But these parents have the right to be flawed – or terrible – parents. They may continue making unenlightened choices throughout.

They obviously have (extremely) different values than you do, and they are demonstrating their values through their parenting choices. You can definitely try to “protect” your granddaughter’s childhood, but the best way to do that is to maintain a relationship with the child that is sage, kind, accepting and healthy. And the way to the child is through her folks. I think you should continue to be extremely judicious in your reactions, and also force yourself to attend one of these competitions. You can say, “This isn’t my thing, but whatever the kids are up to, I want to be there.”

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/07/02/ask-amy-sickened-by-childs-cheerleading/
ashbet: (Default)

[personal profile] ashbet 2023-07-02 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Most parents of young kids don’t lead with “they would accept no input or support, even when they shared their struggles and challenges. Not even a book suggestion was welcome,” unless the grandparent has already been REALLY overbearing (in their son’s childhood, or during young adulthood and the beginning of the relationship/marriage.)

It’s pretty clear that LW doesn’t think much of their son/DIL’s parenting, outside the “cheer” thing.

With that said, I hate sexualized child beauty pageants and age-inappropriate “performance” stuff that mostly exists to feed the parents’ egos… but it is REALLY not the LW’s place to weigh in here, since it sounds like they may have already trampled boundaries.
Edited 2023-07-02 22:40 (UTC)
mommy: Wanda Maximoff; Scarlet Witch (Default)

[personal profile] mommy 2023-07-02 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
LW raised two children but didn't say which one had children of their own first. It's possible that the son watched the LW be overbearing over their sibling's kids and felt the need to set boundaries and bypass that behavior with "they would accept no input or support."
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2023-07-03 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I blinked at the "no input" thing, but given that LW is engaged in child development, I suspect they may be likely to pull "This is the One True Way to raise kids". And very clear boundaries like that reads like, had their kids allowed /some/ input, the LW would trample boundaries like a rabid hippo.

(do hippos even get rabies? lol)
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2023-07-04 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
I think they probably could - there was just a documented case of a MOOSE with rabies

Rabid moose found stumbling, drooling profusely is 1st case ever recorded in Alaska

https://www.livescience.com/animals/land-mammals/rabid-moose-found-stumbling-drooling-profusely-is-1st-case-ever-recorded-in-alaska
cimorene: cartoony drawing of a woman's head in profile giving dubious side-eye (Default)

[personal profile] cimorene 2023-07-04 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, all of this.

The LW evidently has a much sounder position on gender, but that doesn't mean that a kid not going to preschool is somehow bad for them. And the tone of this letter makes me think that I wouldn't want to talk parenting with LW even if I agreed with them.

LW had her child's entire childhood to teach them hey values about gender and child development, and that's the best chance you CAN get to influence someone's opinion about those things. I won't say that she did anything wrong if her son doesn't think those things are important, but she certainly has a low chance of succeeding after the fact with verbal persuasion AFTER she's been explicitly told her opinion isn't wanted!
shanaqui: River from Firefly. ((Crowley) Oh shit)

[personal profile] shanaqui 2023-07-02 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)

It sounds like LW thinks they know everything, and I can just bet that got on the nerves of the parents.

I'm on the fence about the cheer stuff. Bright red lipstick doesn't suddenly turn a child into a sex kitten: it's cosmetics, not magic. If the kid seems to be enjoying it, then it's not going to harm her in and of itself (same as swanning around in my mother's clothes didn't hurt me, even though they were clothes for an adult). (Pretending to be a grown-up can be very fun play for a kid; I wanted to be beautiful just like my mum.) Lipstick only means what we ascribe to it. Still, it has an effect on how a child is seen and how people treat the child, so... I hope the parents are aware and keeping a close eye, at the very least.

azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2023-07-03 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I would be worried about things like distorted body image, possible injuries from too ambitious cheer exercises done for winning competitions rather than having fun, and exposure to possible predatory people in positions of trust. Which last is a problem in pretty much every sport and organization that does not treat children's reports of problems and discomfort seriously. And concerned that perhaps the parents of the small child will value compliance with highly stylized gender and beauty norms over self-determination. Much less concerned that the kid will independently invent sex at a higher level than they might otherwise.

The idea that a small child is "being sexual" when performing gestures that might be flirtatious in an adult baffles me. Kids their own age will be like "you're acting silly" and treat it as a game or as weird. If a grown-up interprets an ACTUAL CHILD performing trained behaviors as a deliberately intentional invitation to any kind of sex and considers acting on it, that grown-up has Problems.
Edited 2023-07-03 01:31 (UTC)
ashbet: (Default)

[personal profile] ashbet 2023-07-03 03:53 am (UTC)(link)
"The idea that a small child is "being sexual" when performing gestures that might be flirtatious in an adult baffles me."

I'm not worried about the kid "being sexual," I'm worried that there are going to be shitty, abusive adults around who will behave inappropriately.

Never the fault of the child.

But, yeah, midriff tops and red lipstick on a toddler doing a public performance is putting the kids in a situation where they may be exposed to harm from adults, and/or exposed to some really distorted messaging.

(This is different from "wear what you want at home" and "dress-up/makeup play is just fine overall" -- these adults are costuming the children to perform in a contest, and it's really not being done for the kids' entertainment or benefit.)
lethe1: (lom: scary)

[personal profile] lethe1 2023-07-03 10:03 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not worried about the kid "being sexual," I'm worried that there are going to be shitty, abusive adults around who will behave inappropriately.

Agreed.
Edited (html) 2023-07-03 10:06 (UTC)
shanaqui: Haurchefant from FFXIV. Blue haired elf character smiling, maybe smirking. ((Haurchefant) Smile)

[personal profile] shanaqui 2023-07-03 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)

these adults are costuming the children to perform in a contest, and it's really not being done for the kids' entertainment or benefit

I think it's difficult to draw this line, because I was attired in a skin-coloured, skin-tight leotard to do ballet -- I was only barely not naked -- and I've rarely met anyone who isn't fine with that, because it's ballet.

The messaging around bodies in ballet is also terrible, sometimes in similar ways, sometimes in very different ways. But again, people don't freak out in the same way at all, because it's ballet so it must be okay.

Also the concern someone else mentioned about possible injuries: equally possible in ballet, and yet ballet is socially acceptable. (I was lucky, my teacher was physically damaged for life by dancing en-pointe too early, and thus refused to allow us blocked shoes until we were considerably older than the norm.)

So, my experiences as a ballet dancer are the source of a lot of ambivalence for me -- I think that stuff like this "cheer" group get singled out as harmful when approved and acceptable activities are equally so, or worse. There were positive aspects of being a dancer, and parts of it which I enjoyed, despite the many ways it was inappropriate; I think it likely that kids get some enjoyment and useful physical skills out of the cheer stuff, too. I can imagine ways in which it could be a group that is letting the kids have a whole lot of fun, and in which they could be protected and safe, and more so than in acceptable things like ballet.

Clearly, this whole topic is one that fucks with my brain more than I imagined...

ashbet: (Default)

[personal profile] ashbet 2023-07-03 01:30 pm (UTC)(link)
If it helps, I don’t think 3-year-olds should be doing ballet, either!

(Not all teachers are like yours, in terms of pushing kids to do things that risk injury and staying developmentally-appropriate about things like toe shoes. And WOW does it value thinness!)

I don’t have an issue with kids taking general dance and body-movement classes that teach them to take joy in the shared activity, but parents pushing literal toddlers into really formalized stuff and performance is not super healthy for the kids.

(I took ballet classes as a child and wound up feeling really bad about myself because I struggled and was not naturally coordinated/talented, and got injured a few times — turns out that I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, so I’m hypermobile/flexible, but all my connective tissue is fragile. VERY glad I didn’t keep pushing through pain and completely destroy my feet!!)
shanaqui: Harriet Vane from the Lord Peter Wimsey mysteries, smiling, text: imagine ((Harriet) Imagine)

[personal profile] shanaqui 2023-07-03 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)

Then that does indeed make sense!

(I am completely non-flexible, no medical reason known, just... I don't seem to be built to be able to do stuff like even touch my own toes, unless I'm actively training toward that with a lot a lot a lot of stretching multiple times every. single. day, and even then I don't fold over "properly" the way other people do -- my hips just don't tilt enough, my body just doesn't curve enough, etc. You can imagine how that felt in a ballet class when others could put their legs up and I struggled to get mine higher than just-below-waist-level, etc. Gaaah. A whole class of body issues there around ability that is... not what people imagine when thinking about issues that might arise in ballet. Yoga also a problem, but at least I'm an adult now and can be firm about "no, my body can't do that, at least not right now".)

azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2023-07-04 05:55 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, thank you for putting those words together like that.
teaotter: (Default)

[personal profile] teaotter 2023-07-03 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
I notice that LW's children are "successful professionals," and not "happy people with fulfilling lives."

I further notice that all of the contact examples are "texts, e-mails and rare phone calls." LW's kids "apparently are fine" with things as they are.

It sounds to me like LW is using the "sexualized" activity as a justification to stick their nose in, rather than having any kind of relationship with the child or any real knowledge of the child's life and play opportunities.

LW, your kids keep you out of their lives for a reason, whether you want to admit to that reason or not. Stick to the boundaries they've set or expect to be locked out further.


cora: Charisma Carpenter with flash of light on the bottom (Default)

[personal profile] cora 2023-07-03 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
These are all great points! If LW was as good of a parent as they seem to think they are - the kids would likely be more open to support/ideas/suggestions. In my family, people with kids do ask the previous generation for thoughts/advice...but also in my family, there is an understanding and a respect for "just because I asked for thoughts/opinion/advice does not guarantee I will take it and follow it to the letter." Sometimes the advice given is still relevant today, and other times, the advice isn't relevant at all. No different than how it has been for previous generations.

It sounds like LW's kids are very low contact with them.

The pearl clutching strikes me as super weird. I don't know that peewee cheer is all that different from peewee gymnastics, peewee jazz, peewee ballet, etc. These sports also contains the same "wow, that outfit doesn't leave much to the imagination" and stage make up, too. I wouldn't pearl clutch over ballet/jazz/gymnastics, so I'm puzzled why I would pearl clutch over cheer. The same "ensure staff goes through background checks just as teachers do, keep an eye on your child's relationship to self, body, and food" advice applies across the board for all sports. The body dysmorphia (and thus issues with relationship to your body/food) and self esteem/confidence issues tend to pop up more overtly in sports where your entire body is the sport (verses how well you can hit or block a ball).

I also think the pearl clutching about how much skin clothing in a given sport covers and the amount of make up in a sport is a purity culture hang over best left in the 90s. Back then, pedophiles had to interact with kids in person, rather than getting their fill from social media posts made by well intentioned parents. We are now in an era wherein we are starting to ask each other "why do we feel the need to punish a child by removing them from an educational space when they are wearing clothing they find comfortable?" (IE: leggings/spaghetti straps - and it's often only female bodies we feel the need to police in such a fashion. In school it was the girls who needed to get a different top...boys were told to pull up their pants/tighten their belt and that was it. No boy was ever removed from the classroom or suspended for repeatedly letting their pants sag and it was fine for them to get around the 'no underwear' rule by just wearing sports shorts under their regular pants)
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2023-07-03 01:40 am (UTC)(link)
My main concern with very young children doing cheer
would be messages around weight loss.

I think it would be a good idea for LW, if she has any contact with grandchild,

to reinforce "all bodies are good bodies"

and watch out for any weight loss focus.
shirou: (cloud)

[personal profile] shirou 2023-07-03 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
LW may have chosen to open with, "they let us know early on that they would accept no input or support," because it is such an unyielding boundary to draw. It would definitely set the tone of the relationship. But it sounds like LW has been abiding, which makes me think LW is not some pushy busybody.

I am concerned less by the cheer classes, although I don't love them, and more on the lack of normal developmental activities. I hope those will come soon.
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2023-07-04 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
If she's in daycare, that probably is preschool, essentially, for part of the day. If one of the parents is at home, or they have a nanny or something, they probably don't want to pay for a full preschool program before age four. And if LW is as out of touch with them as she seems to be, she might not even know if the little girl was in something like the part-time co-op preschool program my son did at three.