agonyaunt

WTF

Dear Penny,

I've decided to basically cut off my daughter once she's finished high school, which will be just over five months from now. She didn't do anything wrong. I'm not eager to be rid of her, and I could easily continue to provide her basic needs, but I won't.

I myself lived with my parents into my 20s, but I feel like this did me no favors. I’ve come to believe in “sink or swim” and “hard knock” life philosophies. So please don't argue about this decision.

My only question is when and how to deliver this news to my daughter. I don't want to ruin her birthday or the rest of her senior year, so I may wait until after graduation to tell her she's on her own.

I’ve been trying to instill frugality, budgeting and saving, but my daughter doesn't yet know how important that will soon be for her. If she knew now, she might be better prepared, but I can see how the stress from this might actually be detrimental overall.

My daughter and I have a tender, loving relationship, and I'm sure she will be surprised to find out she's being turned away. Or maybe she will surprise me and fly the nest without being pushed. She actually told me months ago that I shouldn't pay for college; that is actually what got me started down this road.

I hope to still have a relationship with her after this, but I will understand if she doesn't speak to me for a while. Should I continue to gently lead my daughter toward independence without letting on that it will be forced? Or do I need to inform her now that she will be on her own come summer? Again, my decision is firm in that regard, so please don't argue there.

-B.

Dear B.,

I think your daughter could reasonably conclude that she’ll be able to transition into adulthood, as is the norm today. You yourself only decided to send her to the School of Hard Knocks months ago. I can’t not argue against a terribly thought-out plan.

But if you’re really, REALLY determined to give your daughter the boot in five months, tell her now that this steel-toed kick is coming. Yes, this will add to her stress levels over the next five months. It will add to yours, as well. But your daughter will need time to save as much money as possible. She’ll need to find a place to live (as well as roommates) with zero credit. She also may need to adjust her college plans.

Be clear with her on your reasoning. I can’t really offer any advice beyond that, though, because I don’t understand your reasoning.

Your daughter may think she can pay for college on her own. But she’s being a tad naive, which we can forgive her for since she’s still a teenager.

The federal government expects parents to help pay for their children’s education if they have resources to do so. You can refuse to contribute to your daughter’s education. You can kick her out of the house. You can even avoid claiming her as a dependent for tax purposes. But guess what? She’ll still be considered a dependent student until she’s 24 unless specific circumstances apply — like if she gets married, has a child or joins the military.

I don’t think you grasp how much things have changed since you were a young adult. Higher education and housing costs have exploded. In the meantime, it’s getting harder to make a living with a high school diploma alone. The New York Fed reports that the average wage for college graduates ages 22 to 27 is $52,000, compared with $30,000 for those in the same age group with just a high school education.

You say living with your parents into your 20s did you no favors. I’m curious about that. Do you wish you’d learned responsibility earlier?

Because there’s a big difference between shoving your daughter off a financial cliff after she graduates from high school versus coddling her until she’s 28. Communicating clear expectations is key. You could tell her she can live with you only if she’s enrolled in school and working part time. Or that she’ll need to start paying rent this summer. Or that you expect her to be financially independent by a deadline far enough into the future that she can find a decent job and build credit and savings.

Obviously, there’s not a lot of clear setting of expectations or communication if your daughter has no idea this is coming, while you’re hoping she’ll magically figure things out on her own. But please don’t think that you’ve done your work as a parent by simply lecturing her about budgeting and saving. Effective teaching is about the “why” as much as the “how.”

I truly believe you want your daughter to grow into a successful adult. Part of that means giving her room to fail. Please don’t surprise her at graduation with a pop quiz where she has to figure out her entire life at 18.

https://www.thepennyhoarder.com/budgeting/daughter-cut-off-at-18/

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Seriously what is wrong with this person, and does their daughter have another parent or any other adult in their life who can help them?

A former friend of mine said they would do this to their kid and I disagreed (one of the reasons they're a former friend). When the time came they did not and instead sent their kid to college. I was tempted to email them and ask why/when they changed their mind but decided not to.

I feel immeasurably bad for LW's daughter, who doesn't realize she was born to King Lear or something.

Twenty years from now: "SHE NEVER WRITES, SHE NEVER VISITS, SHE NEVER CALLS WAAAAHH WAAAAHHH WAAHHHHH"

Yup.

Doesn't she know I agonized over this? Doesn't she realize I only kicked her out for her own good? Oh, how sharper than a serpent's tooth is a thankless child!

Wow, that poor kid :/

And, yeah, she won’t be able to get college financial aid under these circumstances, because FAFSA doesn’t allow many avenues for thrown-away kids or those with no parental support.

You know, if this were a bad advice column, I might point out that the other way to have parental income not count against you on FAFSA is for the parents to be dead. Maybe don’t incentivize your child in that direction, LW.

Ha!

WTF indeed! Ugh.

Wha....

I have heard of people doing this before, but I'm having such trouble making these actual words into a coherent statement! What is actually wrong with this person????? How... does this happen?

Gee, I can't imagine why daughter might be unhappy with their parent if she finds upon graduation that she's now homeless, without health insurance, isn't getting any support for her education, and has to find a safe place to live with whatever job a high school graduate can get.

LW, you believe in sink-or-swim; what are you going to do if your daughter sinks? Are you going to wash your hands of her and say "tough shit; if she was worth anything, she'd have swum"? What if the sinking involves your grandchildren growing up in poverty or abuse?

Life will provide the hard knocks on its own; you don't need to manufacture them.

LW Arguments about if this is even a good idea aside, I did have friends who were supporting themselves from age 18, who had and have a good relationship with their parents, and don't regret or resent it.

The difference? They knew it was coming their whole lives, it was part of how they grew up abd something they planned around their whole lives (Also, they knew their parents would still be supporting them in some ways, just not with rent and groceries.)

You have waited too late to pull this off. Don't.

This!

No notice! Just toss her on her ear! Even if she's a trust fund kid, there are massive problems waiting one step away in almost every direction.

What gets me about this insane letter is that the writer seems well aware that they are torpedoing their relationship with the daughter, but for some reason thinks it won't be a permanent breach? That the daughter will be made homeless on no notice and deprived of their higher education and this will eventually be good? It's not inconsistent with the rest of the delusional thinking in the letter so I suppose it's not surprising, but wow.

but for some reason thinks it won't be a permanent breach

In the LW's fantasies, she'll soar like an eagle, magically become a billionaire, then realize that they ~saved her~ the horrors of being ~~supported~~ coddled, and tearfully welcome them back into her life.

Or something, idek

Yes! Yes you're right, the LW has read all the nonsense from billionaires saying ooh-well-I-had-to-make-it-on-my-own (and the LW secretly thinks they would've been one too, if circumstances had been different) and now hasn't wondered if there's any kind of sample bias in the people who talk about how happy they are they got kicked out at 18.

I was theoretically self-supporting after leaving school, but (1) that was a handful of decades ago and (2) I was entitled, on my own, to special government assistance if I continued in higher education. It was a good thing I had (2), because my mother refused to fill out any financial aid forms. I went to a cheap state university and just about kept my head above water---mainly, probably, because I didn't have credit cards and was limited to cash... and although it didn't end terribly badly, I wasn't left with a lot of warm family feeling. One brother had similar treatment and was for many years very cool indeed toward Mom, though he has very charitably recently been kind and supportive to her. Other brother, seeing this, joined the military.

If this letter is real, the parent cutting off their child at 18 doesn't dwell in a vacuum, and I would love to see the responses from the community around them.

the parent cutting off their child at 18 doesn't dwell in a vacuum, and I would love to see the responses from the community around them.

I bet there's a story they've manufactured to tell their friends/family/church/whatever in which they've pretty effectively Scapegoated their kid. (pardon the pun)

I can't even wrap my head around this. I mean, this isn't even me saying that, you know, there are actually studies on how working more than 30 hour a week tends to affect success in post-secondary ed (spoilers: it's not positive). This is, "exactly how long are you going to give this person to find a place to live?" I couldn't find a reasonable housing situation in under about a month, and I'm 53 with a full-time job and an established history.

look, if you kick her out now she can use her homeless status as a legitimate reason that she will not be getting parental support on the application form!

Yeah, or she can just freeze to death, problem solved.

The contest for worst parent of the year is really starting early this year.

WOW. This one hits me in the middle of my feels. And I want to repeat. WOW.

I doubt that LW actually knows that their kid is on their health care etc until they are 26 (in the US). And I wonder what that kid would do if say.. their parent doesn't fill out FAFSA with them (my mother refused. which is why I did a lot of things on my own.) But let's say kid doesn't want parent to pay for college. OK. Perhaps they were going to go into the military. But they still actually need a home address etc.. the military will want next of kin on their forms. Just how far is LW thinking this booting out of their life actually goes? Bc I don't think they realize that even if THEY think they are giving their kid the right push, in general, society around them will expect them to still participate in their lives.

Granted.. foster kids have this happen to them. But I don't think they would recommend it to anyone. They would love to have a place to go to for breaks and holidays. But it sounds like LW isn't really into that.

I myself went to college without any financial aid. I was told to figure it out, but not to go to the family for $$. I figured it out. It SUCKED. And today's rates for schools/housing/food etc is like 10xs more than when I did it. I worked 3 craptastic jobs at the same time, year round to pay for everything. I got little sleep and had little time to do those things that young adults do to form friendships and relationships that are sustaining. It does truly help them find people who prey on the weak. Not bc those kids are weak, but bc they have no extra energy to see warning signs. That bootstrap stuff is bullshit and they can burn themselves out before they hit their mid twenties.

Personally: I did have a home to go to even tho I did all this. BUT with no other support I found jobs that provided housing or food etc. I would occasionally go home to toss a load of laundry in, but everything else was on me. And frankly I probably assumed if something truly bad happened the family would step up. I finally found a job across the country and I moved. As I was packing the last of my things my mother looked me in the eye and informed me very clearly. "If something ever happens, you cannot call us to help you. Understand" And from that moment on I fully realized there had been no net all along. LW tell the kid now. Kid, I hope you have some good friends who can help and a hell of a lot of luck.

The kid CAN be on the parents' health plan until 26, if the parent lets them and pays for it. This parent isn't going to. The kid may be able to get a free/low cost ACA plan, though.

ah interesting. At my work it is not an option to remove them.

Huh. At all my jobs, dependents have had to be added, you have to provide their SSNs amongst other information, and you have to agree to pay the extra premium per dependent. How would your job know of the existence of your dependents, much less all the relevant information, unless you told them? What if your dependent has better insurance by age 26 and wants off your plan (I did)? I have so many questions!

Yes, or what if, already on your insurance, they die or marry or decide to switch to their own or their other parent's insurance or anyway otherwise end up ineligible for yours?

Yes, this! (I hope "no option" is shorthand for "no option unless there's a qualifying event," but even so, how would they know about your children unless you added them? Every time I start a new job or my company changes insurance carriers, I have to tell them who my dependents are.)

Yeah it is no option unless qualifying event. But they are auto added every yr until qualifying event (you have 30 days after said event) they do have age in there so once in they have a timer on them.

asking young adults to pay rent to parents: totally acceptable, if they know it's coming, and preferably not market rate because market rate is bonkers these days.

that ... is not what LW is proposing.

(one thing Penny fails to clarify, assuming the U.S. as Penny does, is that "your daughter is your dependent until she is 24" also means "if you aren't prepared to jump through a bunch of paperwork hoops, or your daughter shells out a lot of money to get emancipate, your daughter will find it almost impossible to get college financial aid, and depending on circumstances, health insurance." Providers in the U.S. assume 18 year olds have parental support unless proven otherwise. This was even the case when I went to college, so there's no excuse for L.W. not knowing it, unless they didn't know anybody who had an estranged parent.)

(Penny also fails to clarify that if LW absentmindedly lies on her taxes she's in for a world of hurt, because to-be-estranged daughter is damn well going to claim herself as a dependent.)

(Penny also fails to clarify that LW will almost certainly estrange many of her friends and much of her family with this cockamamie move, which will absolutely become widely known, but I suppose that's not her job to answer.)

LW will almost certainly estrange many of her friends and much of her family with this cockamamie move

As I said in another comment, she's probably already been manufacturing a story to tell her friends and family in which the daughter is a Scapegoat. Probably been at it for some years, in fact.

I so hope the daughter has a caring father, aunt, grandparent, someone in her life who will offer the support her mother has randomly decided to withdraw.

Edited 2023-01-03 14:20 (UTC)

My main reaction reading this was:

"Hi, I've completely failed to prepare my daughter for the real world, and as a way to avoid looking my failure in the face I'm going to kick her out of my life so I won't have to think about it. That will work, won't it?"

Daughter, I wish you the widest and most supportive friend group you can possibly gather. I hope at least two or three of them have parents who love to take in their kids friends. Please try to stay away from abusive groups of "friends" though - they're out there, and they can be very attractive and hard to identify if your parents have failed you as much as yours has.

She actually told me months ago that I shouldn't pay for college; that is actually what got me started down this road.

Rereading this, I can't help thinking LW is holding her daughter responsible for the drastic step LW is about to take. And maybe there is some spite too? "Oh, so you won't accept my help getting you through college? Then you will not get *any* help from me anymore, see how you like it!"

I also find it strange that while having no experience herself with "sink or swim" and "The School of Hard Knocks", she is so convinced that that is far better than leaving home of your own accord, when you're ready.

In any case, I don't think she will have a tender, loving relationship with her daughter for much longer.

I suspect backstory to why the daughter said that. Like, maybe the parent will only pay for Liberty U or similar? or they have Ridiculous Conditions that the daughter hasn't fulfilled?

I assume the LW has a plan for their own eldercare which is fully-funded and does not rely on their daughter's unpaid emotional and physical labor? Oh, what's that, obviously Medicare will cover everything and LW will remain fully capable of decision making? Suuuuuuure, Jan.

Hey, what's good for the gosling must be good for the goose.

lollll

My mom's parents gave her a suitcase for her 18th birthday, and expected her to use it in order to move out. But they were very poor, and I'm pretty sure my mom knew it was coming.

I had an academic scholarship to a state school that required me to carry a certain GPA. My dad walked back his promise to provide me a certain level of support (which, honestly, was not much) and told me to get a second job. I threatened to cut off all contact, because a second job would have meant losing the scholarship. I felt that threat was justified, especially given that they had promised a certain level of support. If my folks had presented me with a suitcase on my 18th birthday, I probably wouldn't have had that reaction.

The difference being: if you come from a family where it's clear you'll be cut off at a certain point, then you know you need to be self-sufficient. If the rug gets pulled out from under you, it's a different story entirely.

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