minoanmiss: Detail of a Minoan statuette of a worshipping youth (Statuette Youth)
minoanmiss ([personal profile] minoanmiss) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2022-03-01 01:15 pm

Dear Prudence: Help! An Illness Has Completely Changed My Husband. Can I Leave Him?



Every Thursday on Twitter [profile] jdesmondharris, Dear Prudence asks readers for their thoughts on a question that has her stumped. She’ll post her final thoughts on the matter on Fridays. Here’s this week’s dilemma and answer

My husband “Ken” and I got married when we were 27. We’d been dating for three years and built a life around the activities we loved doing—hiking, cycling, cross-country skiing, and many other active pursuits.

Four years into our marriage, Ken was diagnosed with a chronic, incurable condition which flares up with no warning and is only somewhat controllable. He will deal with this for the rest of his life. The illness has made Ken into a different person. He can barely walk or lie in bed comfortably, much less go for a hike or engage in any of the activities that brought us so much joy in the past. Though the illness has no biological impact on his brain, Ken’s mental health has (understandably) completely fallen apart. He is depressed, angry, and verbally abusive to me. We are no longer in love. I am a caregiver at best and a verbal punching bag at worst.

I would like to leave Ken. I’ve brought this up with a few close friends and family members, nearly 100 percent of whom have had the same horrified, aghast reaction. They mention our wedding vows (“in sickness and in health”) and Ken’s increasing physical caregiving needs. Conceptually, I see where they’re coming from, but I don’t want to spend the rest of my life being a verbal punching bag for someone who seems like he hates me.

Would I be a monster for leaving Ken? Is there any way to do this in a manner that causes the least amount of pain possible for him? I do still care about him and don’t want to be cruel.

— Am I a Monster


Dear Am I,

A couple of things I’m sure about: What your friends think about your relationship never matters more than what you feel. You can end a relationship that’s making you unhappy at any time—even if the person did absolutely nothing wrong. And nobody is better off being with someone who doesn’t want to be there.

So the easy answer to your letter is: This guy is verbally abusing you. You didn’t agree to that. He broke your vows first. You absolutely don’t have to accept it. And it’s not cruel to leave.

That was the overwhelming response that from readers who responded to your question, and the one that resonated with me the most.

You never ever have to stay married to someone who abuses you ever, for any reason. Anyone who tells her otherwise is enabling her abuser. Marriages can—and do!—evolve as interests and lives must change. But there is no room for that growth in an abusive marriage — [profile] lolacoaster

You’re always allowed to put yourself first and leave a situation that no longer benefits or fulfills you. You’re always allowed to leave an abusive person. People will have opinions that you’ll want to defend yourself against. What people think of you is none of your business. — [profile] carolinemoss

What’s sad is how many friends have tried to convince her to suffer because of vows – which SHOULD NOT take precedent over self-preservation. Also being ill is not an excuse to shit-talk your spouse and abuse is abuse no matter how you try to justify it. — [profile] amayajsmith

There’s nothing about enduring abuse in the wedding vows. — [profile] battymamzelle

Speaking as someone who developed chronic life-altering health problems a couple of years after marrying, there is no condition that justifies being unkind to one’s partner. My condition changed my husband’s life too - I would not expect him to stay if I treated him badly. — [profile] jerrinewman


But since I put it out there for feedback, I’ll also surface another theme that I saw in the responses, in particular from disabled and chronically ill people. I want to be careful sharing it because I don’t think we have enough information from you to support this narrative with confidence—but if it resonates, think about it, and if it doesn’t, disregard it.

Some people wondered whether you might be fed up with the lifestyle changes that have come with being married to someone with Ken’s condition and wondered if you were labeling his understandably bad moods as “abuse” in an effort to make yourself feel better about leaving. There were questions about whether this could fit a pattern whereby disabled and sick people’s loved ones get tired of them and distance themselves, using any excuse they can find.

My friends dropped me as soon as my disability was discovered to be permanent instead of a temporary injury. I got to hear through the grapevine them telling this same “we grew apart” lie. I would repeatedly explain my new limits, trying to schedule hangouts in my “good week” …post-pain treatments, only to be told I wasn’t “fun anymore” because I couldn’t be as spontaneous. They’d say I reminded them “too early” or “too late” to get on their schedule, yet I’d see them making alternate plans on social media that could’ve easily been with me instead. She says they built their life together around being active, but now her husband can’t really do those things anymore. That says it all to me … I’m not making excuses if he is indeed abusive. Disabled people absolutely can be abusers too, but we’re far more likely to be victims in any given bad situation. Her reasoning in this letter just echoes so many of the lies I heard about myself that I’m like, “Hmm.” — [profile] molliekatie

If this is the case—and again, it’s a big if—it might be worth your while to invest in counseling to navigate the way your life has changed, the way Ken’s moods have changed, and how it’s affected you. If he’s simply been short or impatient with you as a result of his depression, maybe he can change, especially if he understands how much he’s hurting you and what’s at stake and if he gets the support he needs.

It’s interesting that the abuse gets three sentences while the alterations to their married lifestyle gets seven. I think LW might not be clear on her own priorities here. Individual counseling for all involved would be a great starting line. — [profile] k_persists

Both OP and her husband are grieving the loss of the life they thought they would have together. I think couples counseling could be helpful, as well as individual therapy. It sounds like Ken is having trouble adjusting to living with his illness, and is taking his anger and frustration out on you, which is not at all OK. You are both processing pain and trauma, which is not a good place to make life-changing decisions. — [profile] trishobrien

He needs therapy with someone well trained in chronic pain and trauma. The problem is, she sees the person he is right now as who he will be forever. Aside from the abuse, which has to stop now, this is a person who’s in a painful transition time who needs help. She’s seeing this as a binary, she can stay with a person she doesn’t like anymore, or she can leave and start a new relationship. Instead, she should see his mental health problems as *health problems* (bc they are) and support him getting the treatment he needs for those. — [profile] iproposethis

I would have a conversation about how I’m feeling, being on the receiving end of verbal abuse. I would make an ultimatum – he must go to therapy (couples/and one: one) and work on his behavior or I’m out. give a fair chance to change, but if he’s unwilling/unchanging, leave. — [profile] samlindauer


Even if you still decide to leave the relationship, you might feel more confident and secure about the decision (if it comes to that) if you know that you’ve given the relationship an opportunity to improve.

But again: You said the word abuse, and to me that’s the end of the discussion. If you meant it—and I think we should assume you did—you should get out and not let anyone change your mind.
cimorene: A small bronze table lamp with triple-layered orange glass shades (stylish)

[personal profile] cimorene 2022-03-01 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I mean... especially the first disabled response resonates. It's plausible. But on the other hand, this letter may have some missing reasons, but is it within the remit of an advice column to make the advice like... based on assuming the LW is lying about something specific, or is just completely wrong about it?

I DO see a possibility that somebody in a mentally bad place and wanting to justify themselves could characterize to themselves as "I'm being verbally abused" when in fact they've both become verbally abusive, or when what's actuallty happening is, I guess, yelling and being short-tempered that isn't verbal abuse? Maybe becoming kind of mean and losing the warmth towards her, not necessarily personal attacks? Okay, yeah, possible.

But if actually she's correct and is being verbally abused, she needs to know for a fact that that's what's happening, but she doesn't need to have couples' therapy with him. Couples' therapy with an abuser, including a verbal abuser, is counterindicated: it actually makes the situation worse, typically, right? So especially when, as long as we assume LP isn't a troll/deliberately lying, the best case scenario is that she's honestly mistaken that he's a verbal abuser... recommending couples' therapy without any more information seems irresponsible to me for that reason.

And I think it goes without saying she needs individual therapy, so I would say if she's in any doubt that she's in an abusive relationship she should start there, and that should enable her to iron out if she's being abused or not for certain. If yes, divorce. If no, proceed to the negotiation and counseling ideas. (And obviously, if it's completely clear that it is abusive she should leave, and she should also specifically tell off the friends who advised her otherwise.)
lemonsharks: (family shit)

[personal profile] lemonsharks 2022-03-01 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)

or when what's actually happening is, I guess, yelling and being short-tempered that isn't verbal abuse?

I'd hazard that whether yelling adjacent to being angry or annoyed is abuse depends on the person being yelled at.

No one gets to yell at me in anger1--it's a hard no and a significant deal-breaker, due to my trauma history, and the people in my life know this. It's an unusual hard no, but I think that's because people feel/are told they're unreasonable to require their inner circle give up yelling for them.

--

1 as opposed to in safety-alert, like "HOT!" or "CAR!" or "ICE!" (or "GATOR!" or "SNAKE!") or because it's loud/we're talking across a long space.

gingicat: woman in a green dress and cloak holding a rose, looking up at snow falling down on her (Default)

[personal profile] gingicat 2022-03-01 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I realized some time ago that I'd internalized my Dad's love language which goes along the lines of "I love you! You are hurting yourself! Stop that!" all at high volume. Since you know my roommate, I suspect you know how well this goes over. (Also, I'm working on it, unlike Dad.)
Edited 2022-03-01 22:39 (UTC)
lemonsharks: (Default)

[personal profile] lemonsharks 2022-03-02 03:38 am (UTC)(link)

I feel you. Getting myself to live up to my no yelling standard (which I also picked up from my dad, except without the good will) has been a project over a decade in the making.

melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2022-03-01 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
LW, two things:

You should not be your husband's only physical caregiver. You should probably not even be his primary caregiver. Even if you were still both infatuated with each other, and he was the absolutely Perfect Disabled Person Ideal, you should not be his primary caregiver - because Hypothetical Perfect Him would be advocating hard for you to get the respite, and him to get the professional care, you both need, and you would be listening to him.

And if you leave him, he will have to find other caregivers anyway.

So if you're hesitant about leaving, a good first step is to work on getting him other sources of care. It'll be tough because too much of our society is set up to expect it of the wife! But there will be options and ways if you both fight for it. (It might require you divorcing him anyway because our disability system is so fucked up about marriage, and that's something to look at too. It might involve bringing in friends and relatives to help, or completely rearranging your finances.)

As part of that, you should not be getting couples' therapy. You should both be getting individual therapy.

Get to a place where he isn't entirely physically dependent on you, and only then, if you still want to, will you be able to constructively work on the marriage.

(Alternatively: you can just leave. Society is set up to expect wives to be caregivers, and many men are set up that way as well, and with you there you may never be able to fix either his dependency on you or his resentment about it. You don't have to stay just because he needs you. It sounds like your marriage was mostly built on your shared outdoor interests anyway, and while that can been a good start to a relationship, if that's all there ever was you probably would have fallen apart soon even without his illness.)
Edited 2022-03-01 19:10 (UTC)
green_grrl: (Default)

[personal profile] green_grrl 2022-03-02 04:36 am (UTC)(link)
THIS should have been the advice column response.
tielan: (don't make me shoot you)

[personal profile] tielan 2022-03-01 09:19 pm (UTC)(link)
The only question I have is: if he wasn't sick and he was like this, would she stay with him?

No? Then whether he's "in sickness or health" is irrelevant. A woman is entitled to a man who doesn't use her as a punching bag, no matter his physical or mental state.
jadelennox: O RLY: all caps on oscar space no space on romeo lima yankee (gimp: o rly?)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2022-03-01 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)

ObDisclaimer: speaking as a disabled and chronically ill person with an extremely generous support system.

Fundamentally, it doesn't matter if LW is being ableist or not, and is interpreting unhappiness or pain as abuse because it is or because it's non-abusive but LW is angry at the situation. What matters is that they fundamentally don't seem to want this now-disabled husband, so they should leave.

I mean, it matters some. It's possible it could bring LW and husband some comfort or help them be friends again. But it really doesn't seem LW wants to be married to Ken, at all. As one respondent said: "It’s interesting that the abuse gets three sentences while the alterations to their married lifestyle gets seven." If you don't want to be married, then you shouldn't be married -- though you should extricate yourself in a way that is safe for you (if Ken is an abuser) and for Ken (assuming he's not an abuser, because you're his primary caregiver).

Now, LW, if want you want is someone to tell you that your friends' horrific "in sickness and your health" demands are horrific, you have it. They're 100% wrong. But if what you want is someone to promise you that you aren't a rubbish, ableist person who doesn't love your husband simply because he used to be a fit hiker with a six-pack and now he isn't? Hon, nobody knows that but you, and nobody is going to try to make you feel better about yourself for that one. You have no moral responsibility to stay with him, but nobody else is going to reassure you that being shallow isn't a character flaw.

Edited (clarity) 2022-03-01 23:22 (UTC)
ashbet: (Lacrimosa 2)

[personal profile] ashbet 2022-03-02 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
Disabled/chronically-ill person here, and while it SUCKS that a huge proportion of marriages/longterm relationships fail when one partner becomes disabled or their disability worsens, no one should have to accept abuse.

(When I became disabled, my then-husband became depressed and angry, and flat-out refused fo seek help. Eventually, I left him. Another serious relationship fell apart after an injury that further impaired my mobility.)

Even though the husband has every reason to be depressed and struggling, he is not entitled to take it out on his spouse — and the spouse is not required to stick around if their partner is angry and abusive and the love is no longer there.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2022-03-02 01:00 am (UTC)(link)
Feeling trapped as the caregiver of someone you have come to resent and/or fear is a Bad Situation. It's a setup for even worse shit.

The time to work on the relationship, if you choose to, is after getting more options.
firecat: red panda, winking (Default)

[personal profile] firecat 2022-03-02 08:43 am (UTC)(link)
I'm disabled and I've been a caregiver. I hope LW leaves because I've been in the husband's position, and I wouldn't want a caregiver who felt that way about me. Never mind a spouse!!!

The person I was caregiving was abusive at times, through no fault of their own (they had dementia). I had to stop being their caregiver, for my own sanity.

(I know some people don't have a choice.)
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2022-03-03 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
As a disabled person, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Issue 1: Ken is likely angry-grieving the life he expected. This is normal.

Issue 2: this doesn't make verbal abuse ok.

Issue 2b: on either part. I can't tell if it's mutual yelling or just him, but she doesn't sound at all sympathetic.

Issue 3: THEY NEED MORE CARE aaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Even if Ken were an angel, she'd be burning out.

Issue 4: my abandonment issues (both personal and as a disability issue) are rearing up hard, but my "put on your own oxygen mask first" belief is strong, and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Step 1, imo, is setting up care for his physical needs. Step 2 is therapy for both of them, separately. And step 3 is "good luck you're in a wilderness without a map".
cereta: Syfy's Alice (Alice)

[personal profile] cereta 2022-03-04 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
Yes. Just...yes.