minoanmiss (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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agonyaunt2021-09-15 11:08 am
minoanmiss) wrote in agonyaunt2021-09-15 11:08 am
Entry tags:
#NotAllManagers
Oh this is funny. This is a slightly unorthodox submission, as it is a thread in a discussion of an answer.
The original question was "should I feel guilty about leaving for another job?"
Here's one comment:
ENFP in Texas*
September 15, 2021 at 12:30 am
#1 – remember that It’s Just Business, It’s Not Personal. He’s your manager,not your best buddy, and it’s a workplace, not a family.
Also realize that if the company had to cut costs, they could – and would – lay you off in a heartbeat without any guilt whatsoever.
Good luck with the job hunt!
This is Alison's Response:
Ask a Manager*September 15, 2021 at 12:35 am
Eh, plenty of managers feel terrible when they have to lay people off. I’m not a fan of the “they’d get rid of you without thinking twice” framework — often they would agonize over it and feel terrible about it (that’s true of every single manager I know who’s had to lay people off, including me). Plus if it doesn’t ring true to the person receiving that advice, they’ll be less likely to listen to the part that is true — which is that this is work and you can put your own interests first.
My thoughts in first comment
The original question was "should I feel guilty about leaving for another job?"
Here's one comment:
ENFP in Texas*
September 15, 2021 at 12:30 am
#1 – remember that It’s Just Business, It’s Not Personal. He’s your manager,not your best buddy, and it’s a workplace, not a family.
Also realize that if the company had to cut costs, they could – and would – lay you off in a heartbeat without any guilt whatsoever.
Good luck with the job hunt!
This is Alison's Response:
Ask a Manager*September 15, 2021 at 12:35 am
Eh, plenty of managers feel terrible when they have to lay people off. I’m not a fan of the “they’d get rid of you without thinking twice” framework — often they would agonize over it and feel terrible about it (that’s true of every single manager I know who’s had to lay people off, including me). Plus if it doesn’t ring true to the person receiving that advice, they’ll be less likely to listen to the part that is true — which is that this is work and you can put your own interests first.
My thoughts in first comment
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The key point here is "you shouldn't put the company's interests ahead of your own," but people may parse it as "your manager wouldn't care, so go ahead and quit" and think "but they would care, so I should stay." If A implies B, that doesn't mean not-A implies not-B, but that shape of error is common.
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The skeptical responses in the first thread are, to my mind, mostly from the point of view that capitalism doesn't care. The manager is doing their job by acting for the company; they usually don't really have a choice. Whether they feel conflicted about helping corporations that are probably evil to treat employees badly is irrelevant. Your employment is between you and the company, not you and the manager.
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True, but isn't this irrelevant in both directions? The managers in the discussion were complaining about How Bad They Felt as if their ex-employees could use that to pay rent.
Your employment is between you and the company, not you and the manager.
That depends at least in part on what the manager tells the company, though, doesn't it?
Also, I got the impression from the discussion that there was some "people with more money have more of an inner life" going on, with all the discussion of how terrible managers feel to fire people, as if people who are in a position to get fired don't also feel kind of bad about the situation.
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I didn't read the comment thread over there, but by itself the answer doesn't imply that managers have a richer inner life or that employees don't mind being fired. She's not describing the emotions of managers because they're better, more plentiful, or more valid than the emotions of underlings, she's simply refuting the claim that they wouldn't feel any at all: many of them would feel very bad and would still fire you anyway, and it's their actions that are decisive for your future, so you should act accordingly.
Similarly, while most of your working life is very much affected by the actions of your manager, your employment is a contract and relationship between you and a faceless, probably evil company. The manager mediates it and has a huge impact on you in all kinds of ways, but the employment is still ultimately between you and Company (an emotionless, likely evil entity, likely driven by profit motive), not (as it may feel) between you and your manager, a person whom you may feel kindly towards. And that is why you shouldn't let your feelings towards the Manager, a person, mislead you into treating the Company with a kindness it hasn't earned by acting against your own best interests (if those interests are indeed best served by quitting).
Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
She's not describing the emotions of managers because they're better, more plentiful, or more valid than the emotions of underlings, she's simply refuting the claim that they wouldn't feel any at all: many of them would feel very bad and would still fire you anyway, and it's their actions that are decisive for your future, so you should act accordingly.
My take is that the managers emotions about firing people don't matter and that they should keep their mouths shut about them with anyone who isn't their therapist.
They say: "I feel terrible when I have to fire someone!"
I think: "oh well sucks to be you"
Because when HR tells them to fire someone, they'll do it without hesitation and they'll do everything they can to protect their jobs in the process.
Note: it's worse in countries with fewer worker protections. It still happens in countries with better worker protections; it just takes longer. Possibly longer-enough for Employee to find a better job and leave on their own terms.
I especially sideeye people in the position to tell the c-suite "we can fire 0 people if all of you wonks forego your bonus this year and take a <4% pay cut" but choose not to fight that fight.
Ultimately, I think it's very difficult to choose to work a job that requires firing people and still be a good person
Re: Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
On the other hand, there are times when a manager dragging their feet about firing someone is the
unethical thing to do
I'm thinking here about a nurse in the news recently who had sexually assaulted multiple patients but was given second chance after second chance after second chance
before FINALLY being fired...
Re: Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
Considering it took several "second chances" to get him removed from his position, I think this situation supports rather than refutes my assertion.
Re: Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
Iiiii really disagree. Sometimes, people are bad at their jobs. There can be all kinds of reasons; some can be worked with and some can't. But situations in which an employee is, for whatever reason, not doing their job, or doing it so poorly that the other employees have to redo it, pretty much always become untenable at some point.
Re: Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
Heh, I wish those were the people who got fired.
Back when I was trying to be a unit secretary in a hospital, I was on a second shift after the morning shift. at one point the morning shift guy was a cheerful pretty young man with a bright smile who did nothing but answer the phone. He left organizing the charts, calling in maintenance, logging in patients, all to me.
My bosses told me I should be more cheerful and smiling like he was, and I knew there was no point saying "he does nothing in the mornings" because he was pretty and smiling and I am a middle aged fat lump of a girl.
Eventually he got promoted and even more eventually I got fired. laughs
Re: Whole manager disposal service, yes the entire manager
That's why I said "difficult," not "impossible."
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Yeah, I tend to phrase it as "the organisation doesn't love you back". I am very fond of many individuals I work with, but the organisation will chew you up and spit you out and expect even more of the next person. So fundamentally: put your own interests first.
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