![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Dear Prudence: I don't want to hang out with my husband.
Danny: This last one I just love. Super straightforward. Kind of great. Subject is: "I don’t want to hang out with my husband."
Dear Prudence, my husband works a highly unpredictable shift job. He can be called in at pretty much any hour of the day with one day’s notice, and his hours can vary from nine to seven or an overnight shift. On the other hand, I work a much more regular nine to five Monday through Friday. Lately, when my husband has unexpected bouts of free time during the day, like on a weekday afternoon, he pressures me to spend time with him. He says we should take advantage of the little free time during the week we have with each other. I definitely have slow times during the work day and it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for me to take a few hours off to do my own thing. But Prudie, I don’t want to spend this time with my husband. My job requires a fair amount of extroversion, so when I have free time during the week, I prefer to recharge on my own. I find myself trying to come up with excuses for why I need to be out of the house during these times just so I don’t have to spend my free time with my husband, who happens to not be working.
Avery: Ohhhh.
Danny: His lack of-- *laughs* We're keeping that just because I’ve never--I’ve never had somebody just like sigh, in sadness when I'm reading a letter--
Avery: I'm sorry
Danny: And it’s really it’s really sweet. No, you’re, you have a very, very kind heart.
His lack of routine really grates on me. I’m definitely a creature of habit. I feel bad saying, "I know we never really have time off during the week together, but when we do, I don’t want to spend it with you." He is objectively correct that these overlaps don’t happen often, but unlike him, I don’t want to quote, "take advantage of them" by spending time together. What should we do?
Avery: Is it bad that like this just. Of all the murderer’s row of problems that you’ve lined up, this to me somehow feels like, not the saddest, like there’s no pain Olympics, but this is just indicative of a much larger, sadder, untouchable thing.
Danny: Yeah, I mean, I really I really get not liking somebody's unpredictable schedule. I am also a creature of habit. I also like a lot of time to myself, but I just don’t know what to say to someone who’s like, I don’t really like hanging out with my husband. Like, I don’t know how you solve that problem. It’s a problem like Maria.
Avery: Well, OK, so I was just reading Angela Chen’s book Ace, have you read it?
Danny: I have not.
Avery: So it’s really interesting because on its surface it’s about asexuality and ace sexual identity, ace sexual history, but it takes a fascinating turn into becoming really a tool kit for everyone to have more language around all different kinds of consent. To say like sometimes you don’t feel romantic, sometimes you don’t feel like having sex. Sometimes you don’t feel like spending time together. And all of these are fine. You know?None of these should be considered a problem. And I feel like. This almost reminds me of an extremely I mean, OK, so a huge part of her chapter in the end is she talks about people who don’t have sexual desire or don’t have much sexual desire in relationships with people who do, and this is a fairly common problem and that because society says that it is like the healthy and correct and right thing to do to want to have sex, like you have to be this way, that it is incumbent on the less desirous person to, like, meet those needs, which is the actual opposite of the way consent works when you’re not in a married relationship, you know, like it shouldn’t be incumbent on the person to provide that pleasure. And so I can almost see this playing out an even more asexual way here, because we’re told that, like, married couples love to spend all their time together, that like, you’re in the wrong, person. Writer. Like, you need to amend that and fix that. And I feel like this person, you know, common theme here: needs to go a little easy on themselves and understand that, like. this is OK and, like, I don’t know, I mean, part of me wonders if there could be some sort of structured boundary time or maybe their partner doesn’t know that they need that sort of introversion recharge time. But I feel like they’re not being vocal enough about what they need in this in this relationship.
Danny: Yeah, I think that can be useful. I hadn’t thought about applying a consent framework here, and, I’m not sure--I think I’ll let you do that, I like the idea of taking it from two different angles because part of me is just like, man, if you don’t want to hang out with your husband, like, I don’t know what to tell you. Like, do you like him? Like you say you already don’t see him that much. It doesn’t sound like he’s asking for you to, like, take him to the Crystal Palace or have sex all day so much as he’s just like, "you want to watch a movie or something?" and you’re like, no.
But if you two haven’t talked about the shift job yet and how much it affects, presumably both of you, maybe now’s the time. And to maybe talk about, like, both, what are ways in which I need to have some time during the week when I know if I have downtime at work, it’s mine to do with as I like and not subject to possibly you being free and then changing my plans. I really do get that. I think that’s fine to have a conversation about. I also think it’s not like it’s not fucked up that your husband’s like, "hey, I like hanging out with you". So I hope you can also just like. You know, don’t treat it as like someone awful is asking you to dance and you’re like, "Ugh, I just I wish you hadn’t even thought you could ask me. I don’t want to be rude, but like, ugh". I think it will also be fair if your husband’s like, yeah, my shift job is hard on me too. I also have a hard time dealing with the unpredictability, but it’s the only job I have. And sometimes I like to be around you. I hope you can also make some room to meet him halfway there.
And if you’re like, no, that sounds awful...Avery, as you were saying, maybe that’s a good chance to ask yourself like, do I want to change anything about our marriage? Do I like my husband? You don’t really go into that in the letter, letter writer, so I don’t want to speculate too far in either direction.
But I guess really all of this boils down to is you should talk about the elements of this that are difficult for you, you should try to come up with some sort of compromise where you both get something and you don’t treat either his desire to spend time together as a problem or your need to sometimes be alone as a bad thing. But yeah, if you don’t, you know, you never hang out. And he sometimes wants to hang out and you say no to that and you two never hang out and then you eventually grow distant...that might happen.
Avery: I just feel like this is a yeah, it’s true...I mean, this is true. The writer didn’t go into a lot of detail, but I think for people who are extremely extroverted, they don’t know that some people do need a lot of recharge time, you know, and they might take it personally. I--it sounds to me, knowing very little, that they’re both just a little mystified by each other in this way. And I think this could be bridged or I hope this could be bridged.
Danny: Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I also think that’s a good point, because I also just want to remind myself that, like, everybody is working under some of the most stressful conditions imaginable right now and have been since March. And that’s for people who are, like, able to continue working. So I also really get that part of what the letter writer is saying is not like I’m an introvert and therefore I’m entitled to like such and such accommodations every day or I get to call my union rep so much as like, work is really difficult, really stressful. And I now have to manage a lot of expectations, like from a distance remotely and while also seeming super cheerful.
Avery: Yeah.
Danny: And so if I get a break in the middle of the day, even my husband, who I love, like, I don’t want to fucking talk to anybody. I want to like, stare at a picture of a mountain and just like not exist for 20 minutes. And that makes a lot of sense to me. But just say what you do need and don’t frame it as like, "You’re asking for too much," just like, "Here’s what I need". And then also, hopefully you two will be able to find some time that you can spend together that you want to. And that would be ideal, if you spent some time with your partner, not all of your time, but some, and you mostly enjoyed it. And that’s just Danny Lavery's thoughts on marriage. Take it from me: I’m married.
Avery: It’s possible for creatures of habit. It can be done.
Danny: It can be done. And good luck. I also hope someday maybe he can get a--get promoted to a place where he gets to tell other people that they’re working a shift of unreasonable hours. That’s not ideal either. But at least...I don’t know. I hope no one ever has to work ever again.
Avery: Seriously
Danny: How are you doing? Speaking of work and exhaustion and managing things remotely, you’ve been great. You’ve been hanging out of closet this whole time.
Avery: Oh, man.
Danny: Recording under a tarp.
Avery: It’s it’s really been--it’s really been a pleasure. I mean, it’s kind of fascinating to see where people are. We’re all--I feel like the pandemic has reduced us all to our own individual sitcoms. We all have like a rotating cast of like five characters and it all takes place in one room. And this is all just like stranger than fiction. It’s kind of incredible what’s playing out. How are you holding up?
Danny: I would say conservatively now, ever since I learned that, I actually really, really like those kinds of headphones that just stick in your ear and don’t have cords. I previously thought they were goofy. And then I tried them and I was like, oh, my God, I feel peace. I would say I spend, hm, a third of every day just listening to those, like ambient YouTube channels that are just like forest beats, just like the sound of a stream and some birds and then like a drum and then like one pan flute. And it’s just like, fuck yes, and I just---
Avery: Oh yeah, when that pan flute drops
Danny:--live my life in like an Atlantis ambient sound soundscape. And that’s how I’m getting through. That’s how I’m doing it.
Avery: That’s your general advice to all of these people, correct?
Danny: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If your husband wants to hang out and be like "can my airpods come?" and listen to Atlantic music and then just like nod and look happy.
Avery: Yeah, totally.
Danny: Absolutely. Whatever gets you through the day. Avery, thank you so, so, so much. Please do have me back on any time to talk about Lilith and any of the places that she lived on the series run, either of Cheers or Frasier.
Avery: Thank you very much for your expertise on specifically Cheers, I really appreciate the offer.
Danny: Today was really thorny and I really, really appreciated your thoughtfulness and your warmth. It was sorely needed.
Avery: I don’t know how you do this.
Danny: [indecipherable]
Edited from transcript.
Dear Prudence, my husband works a highly unpredictable shift job. He can be called in at pretty much any hour of the day with one day’s notice, and his hours can vary from nine to seven or an overnight shift. On the other hand, I work a much more regular nine to five Monday through Friday. Lately, when my husband has unexpected bouts of free time during the day, like on a weekday afternoon, he pressures me to spend time with him. He says we should take advantage of the little free time during the week we have with each other. I definitely have slow times during the work day and it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for me to take a few hours off to do my own thing. But Prudie, I don’t want to spend this time with my husband. My job requires a fair amount of extroversion, so when I have free time during the week, I prefer to recharge on my own. I find myself trying to come up with excuses for why I need to be out of the house during these times just so I don’t have to spend my free time with my husband, who happens to not be working.
Avery: Ohhhh.
Danny: His lack of-- *laughs* We're keeping that just because I’ve never--I’ve never had somebody just like sigh, in sadness when I'm reading a letter--
Avery: I'm sorry
Danny: And it’s really it’s really sweet. No, you’re, you have a very, very kind heart.
His lack of routine really grates on me. I’m definitely a creature of habit. I feel bad saying, "I know we never really have time off during the week together, but when we do, I don’t want to spend it with you." He is objectively correct that these overlaps don’t happen often, but unlike him, I don’t want to quote, "take advantage of them" by spending time together. What should we do?
Avery: Is it bad that like this just. Of all the murderer’s row of problems that you’ve lined up, this to me somehow feels like, not the saddest, like there’s no pain Olympics, but this is just indicative of a much larger, sadder, untouchable thing.
Danny: Yeah, I mean, I really I really get not liking somebody's unpredictable schedule. I am also a creature of habit. I also like a lot of time to myself, but I just don’t know what to say to someone who’s like, I don’t really like hanging out with my husband. Like, I don’t know how you solve that problem. It’s a problem like Maria.
Avery: Well, OK, so I was just reading Angela Chen’s book Ace, have you read it?
Danny: I have not.
Avery: So it’s really interesting because on its surface it’s about asexuality and ace sexual identity, ace sexual history, but it takes a fascinating turn into becoming really a tool kit for everyone to have more language around all different kinds of consent. To say like sometimes you don’t feel romantic, sometimes you don’t feel like having sex. Sometimes you don’t feel like spending time together. And all of these are fine. You know?None of these should be considered a problem. And I feel like. This almost reminds me of an extremely I mean, OK, so a huge part of her chapter in the end is she talks about people who don’t have sexual desire or don’t have much sexual desire in relationships with people who do, and this is a fairly common problem and that because society says that it is like the healthy and correct and right thing to do to want to have sex, like you have to be this way, that it is incumbent on the less desirous person to, like, meet those needs, which is the actual opposite of the way consent works when you’re not in a married relationship, you know, like it shouldn’t be incumbent on the person to provide that pleasure. And so I can almost see this playing out an even more asexual way here, because we’re told that, like, married couples love to spend all their time together, that like, you’re in the wrong, person. Writer. Like, you need to amend that and fix that. And I feel like this person, you know, common theme here: needs to go a little easy on themselves and understand that, like. this is OK and, like, I don’t know, I mean, part of me wonders if there could be some sort of structured boundary time or maybe their partner doesn’t know that they need that sort of introversion recharge time. But I feel like they’re not being vocal enough about what they need in this in this relationship.
Danny: Yeah, I think that can be useful. I hadn’t thought about applying a consent framework here, and, I’m not sure--I think I’ll let you do that, I like the idea of taking it from two different angles because part of me is just like, man, if you don’t want to hang out with your husband, like, I don’t know what to tell you. Like, do you like him? Like you say you already don’t see him that much. It doesn’t sound like he’s asking for you to, like, take him to the Crystal Palace or have sex all day so much as he’s just like, "you want to watch a movie or something?" and you’re like, no.
But if you two haven’t talked about the shift job yet and how much it affects, presumably both of you, maybe now’s the time. And to maybe talk about, like, both, what are ways in which I need to have some time during the week when I know if I have downtime at work, it’s mine to do with as I like and not subject to possibly you being free and then changing my plans. I really do get that. I think that’s fine to have a conversation about. I also think it’s not like it’s not fucked up that your husband’s like, "hey, I like hanging out with you". So I hope you can also just like. You know, don’t treat it as like someone awful is asking you to dance and you’re like, "Ugh, I just I wish you hadn’t even thought you could ask me. I don’t want to be rude, but like, ugh". I think it will also be fair if your husband’s like, yeah, my shift job is hard on me too. I also have a hard time dealing with the unpredictability, but it’s the only job I have. And sometimes I like to be around you. I hope you can also make some room to meet him halfway there.
And if you’re like, no, that sounds awful...Avery, as you were saying, maybe that’s a good chance to ask yourself like, do I want to change anything about our marriage? Do I like my husband? You don’t really go into that in the letter, letter writer, so I don’t want to speculate too far in either direction.
But I guess really all of this boils down to is you should talk about the elements of this that are difficult for you, you should try to come up with some sort of compromise where you both get something and you don’t treat either his desire to spend time together as a problem or your need to sometimes be alone as a bad thing. But yeah, if you don’t, you know, you never hang out. And he sometimes wants to hang out and you say no to that and you two never hang out and then you eventually grow distant...that might happen.
Avery: I just feel like this is a yeah, it’s true...I mean, this is true. The writer didn’t go into a lot of detail, but I think for people who are extremely extroverted, they don’t know that some people do need a lot of recharge time, you know, and they might take it personally. I--it sounds to me, knowing very little, that they’re both just a little mystified by each other in this way. And I think this could be bridged or I hope this could be bridged.
Danny: Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I also think that’s a good point, because I also just want to remind myself that, like, everybody is working under some of the most stressful conditions imaginable right now and have been since March. And that’s for people who are, like, able to continue working. So I also really get that part of what the letter writer is saying is not like I’m an introvert and therefore I’m entitled to like such and such accommodations every day or I get to call my union rep so much as like, work is really difficult, really stressful. And I now have to manage a lot of expectations, like from a distance remotely and while also seeming super cheerful.
Avery: Yeah.
Danny: And so if I get a break in the middle of the day, even my husband, who I love, like, I don’t want to fucking talk to anybody. I want to like, stare at a picture of a mountain and just like not exist for 20 minutes. And that makes a lot of sense to me. But just say what you do need and don’t frame it as like, "You’re asking for too much," just like, "Here’s what I need". And then also, hopefully you two will be able to find some time that you can spend together that you want to. And that would be ideal, if you spent some time with your partner, not all of your time, but some, and you mostly enjoyed it. And that’s just Danny Lavery's thoughts on marriage. Take it from me: I’m married.
Avery: It’s possible for creatures of habit. It can be done.
Danny: It can be done. And good luck. I also hope someday maybe he can get a--get promoted to a place where he gets to tell other people that they’re working a shift of unreasonable hours. That’s not ideal either. But at least...I don’t know. I hope no one ever has to work ever again.
Avery: Seriously
Danny: How are you doing? Speaking of work and exhaustion and managing things remotely, you’ve been great. You’ve been hanging out of closet this whole time.
Avery: Oh, man.
Danny: Recording under a tarp.
Avery: It’s it’s really been--it’s really been a pleasure. I mean, it’s kind of fascinating to see where people are. We’re all--I feel like the pandemic has reduced us all to our own individual sitcoms. We all have like a rotating cast of like five characters and it all takes place in one room. And this is all just like stranger than fiction. It’s kind of incredible what’s playing out. How are you holding up?
Danny: I would say conservatively now, ever since I learned that, I actually really, really like those kinds of headphones that just stick in your ear and don’t have cords. I previously thought they were goofy. And then I tried them and I was like, oh, my God, I feel peace. I would say I spend, hm, a third of every day just listening to those, like ambient YouTube channels that are just like forest beats, just like the sound of a stream and some birds and then like a drum and then like one pan flute. And it’s just like, fuck yes, and I just---
Avery: Oh yeah, when that pan flute drops
Danny:--live my life in like an Atlantis ambient sound soundscape. And that’s how I’m getting through. That’s how I’m doing it.
Avery: That’s your general advice to all of these people, correct?
Danny: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If your husband wants to hang out and be like "can my airpods come?" and listen to Atlantic music and then just like nod and look happy.
Avery: Yeah, totally.
Danny: Absolutely. Whatever gets you through the day. Avery, thank you so, so, so much. Please do have me back on any time to talk about Lilith and any of the places that she lived on the series run, either of Cheers or Frasier.
Avery: Thank you very much for your expertise on specifically Cheers, I really appreciate the offer.
Danny: Today was really thorny and I really, really appreciated your thoughtfulness and your warmth. It was sorely needed.
Avery: I don’t know how you do this.
Danny: [indecipherable]
Edited from transcript.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Possibly I'm projecting, but I do have a lot of experience of relationships with family members where a) their general availability is much lower than mine Because Work, b) I would like to spend time with them in general, and c) on random occasions if they ARE available, they expect me to drop everything and perform Happy To See Them on command, without warning or pre-scheduling or, hah, consent. (Also they're likely to demand that I do the work of finding something Fun To Do, because I have so much free time (read: am chronically ill and therefore my time doesn't count, because it isn't paid work) and they, as Working People, cannot be bothered.)
This is not a fun situation to be in, and it makes a relationship feel very lopsided and power-imbalanced. To get back to the letter - is LW's husband putting any work into making the hangouts low-pressure and fun for LW, or scheduling something in advance to look forward to, or is it always "SUDDEN AMBUSH - BE SOCIAL ON MY TERMS!"? Have they talked about their different needs re: time alone and predictability? It is not wrong to want advance warning and some measure of control of one's social time! It is not solely up to LW to adapt to their partner's schedule - is the husband doing any adapting?
I feel like it's really about power dynamics, here. Who gets to decide and who has to suck it up and deal. And that's... not a great state for a marriage, but it's not necessarily unfixable, either, if LW and their husband can open up some good-faith negotiations.
no subject
Like, it’s not that she has AFTERNOONS OFF, it’s that she has slower periods at work where she “could” potentially take leave and do her own thing.
Does she have a limited pool of available PTO, like most people do? Could this affect her workflow or ability to take other recharge time or potentially cause problems with her boss for spontaneously taking hours off on same-day notice?
I think it’s important for LW to figure out whether she actually enjoys spending time with her husband — but I can see multiple ways in which the last-minute nature of these requests could affect her negatively, in addition to just being a disruption in routine.
And I’m someone who LIKES to steal time to spend with my partners pretty much whenever possible, but I can still see some issues here (and I am also chronically-ill, and unless it’s a text or phone conversation, I need to have some spoons set aside to feel *prepared* to spend in-person or video chat time.)
no subject
Word.
Hella word.
My mom, who is extroverted and gregarious and divorced and lonely and completely oblivious to boundaries, gets personally offended if I don't ... want to spend time with her with no warning, or want to hear all about the minutiae of her daily life, or don't respond immediately to texts or calls. I am introverted, disabled, and pretty much peopled out just dealing with caregivers, but I don't have a job and don't have kids so ~clearly~ I must be available, right?
no subject
Because it seems like what we've got is: My husband's schedule is really unpredictable, and therefore the only time we can hang out is if I take a work break in the afternoon.
It seems like if the schedule is actually unpredictable, there will be times when they could hang out in the evening? Or a weekend morning? Or even before LW's work?
So I can't tell if what's actually going on here is:
1. Husband's schedule is unpredictable but not really all that variable - he only has a few possible shifts, all of which include all of LW's time off work, and this really is the only time they can ever hang. In which case the above advice applies? Mostly? Although it does seem like there's still options for LW saying maybe I can get up early on some days you work nights and we can hang out after your shift, or something like that.
2. Husband's schedule is quite variable and there are other possible times they are both off work and could hang, but husband only ever wants to do it when it's a bad time for LW, or just automatically assumes that if LW clocks out early that is him time. This is a problem with husband, not with schedules, and needs to be worked out on that basis. (It could also be that LW also only ever wants to hang out when it's a bad time for husband, in which case they need to communicate and compromise.)
3. There are other times they can hang out, and they do hang out then, husband just wants to more often, and the afternoon/work times are looming larger than they really should be because of the conflict over them. This is where the best solution is most clearly for LW to draw a firm boundary around their scheduled work time as theirs.
Honestly, from the tone of the letter, I would say 2 or 3 are most likely. And in that case, the advice about having the talk about how work is affecting both of you and how this in particular isn't working for you is (as usual) probably the most important part.
4. LW just doesn't like hanging out with husband in general, or LW is so stressed & overburdened by work that they don't have the energy for any hanging out at all.
It is possible for two people to maintain a loving and mostly-fulfilling long distance relationship while living in the same house, if they really have to, and 'we're in a pandemic and have incompatible work schedules' is maybe one of those circumstances. It doesn't really sound like LW's partner is someone who would be up for this, but I want to put it out there! Some relationships can keep going on scheduled dates, love notes, curling up next to a sleeping partner, and kisses in passing for a long time.
(Going back to scheduled romantic dates might be a really good plan for these two, if husband's work schedule will allow for it at all.)
Also, it might help to talk about what hanging out means and if you can change that. I am a person who needs a lot of alone recharge time. But all the people I'd consider being life partners with are people whose presence makes alone recharge time better, not worse. It sounds like husband wants not just hang-out time, but a kind of hang-out that draws from the same well that work does. LW, could you two work out something that counts as spending time together (for him) and counts as recharge time (for you)? And a code word to communicate when that is the kind of together time you need? Listening-to-music-together-silently time? You-talk-about-nothing-and-I-get-to-hear-your-sexy-voice-but-don't-have-to-respond time? We-snuggle-while-staring-at-separate-screens time? You-kneel-at-my-feet-and-only-speak-when-ordered time?
no subject
no subject
no subject
It's not in the letter, but I wonder if LW may be getting anxious if she takes off work to be with husband and then she has to go back and catch up. I'm in academia and nearly always behind, which is one reason I don't like spontaneous hanging-out time. Are there other times when they are both off work they could hang out?
no subject
no subject
So, I get it. One thing I might ask the LW is if there could be a middle ground of the two of them quietly watching a movie together or listening to a podcast or something similarly quiet. Whether that works for either of them, I can't say. If even that is too much, then I do kind of agree that LW needs to re-examine the marriage, and whether they want to be married at all.
no subject
no subject
For me, this resonates with long-term partnership where I worked more, on a more consistent schedule, and with more emotional investment in my work than my partner, so my partner had a lot of time to be bored and think about things we should do together and when I did have time off would assume that was time for us to do things together, whereas I felt like a) I already spent a large proportion of my free time with said partner, even if it wasn't a lot of time, and b) that I was tired and didn't want to do any of the things my partner wanted us to do together. (Which does not speak well to my work-life balance! And on the other hand, I admit, I got used to just assuming that my partner would be free and want to spend time with me the times I did want to hang out, because that was usually the case.)
no subject
The thing missing in that letter that might be a significant factor is whether LW is working from home at present, so Husband sees them 'not working' and wants to spend time together, when in fact LW is doing one of those lighter on phases (so, not at the computer, or on the phone, or whatever busy looks like). Particularly if LW is also inclined to noodle on the computer when not working.
Because 'down time at work where I can stare at the wall' and 'down time while working from home' -- only one of these is visible to the husband.
no subject