agonyaunt | (no subject)

DEAR HARRIETTE: I was talking to a new friend, and during our mostly pleasant conversation, she started comparing herself and her life to characters in old movies. I don’t know if she realized it, but some of her references were outright racist. She doesn’t come off as a racist person, but wanting a house and life like that in “Gone With the Wind,” where the plantation Tara was considered a prize, reeks of our racist past. To long for a time and a home that required the labor of slaves is horrific to me. I didn’t say anything to her, but I wonder if I should. I like this woman and wonder if she is so lost in her dream that she doesn’t realize the context that would allow it to exist. -- Teachable Moment

DEAR TEACHABLE MOMENT: If you care about this woman and believe that she might be able to hear your observations, make time to talk to her face-to-face. Tell her that you were thinking about her comments about wanting a property and life like Tara, and it was offensive to you. Explain to her that you know she was fantasizing, but point out that her fantasy is reliant upon a lifestyle that required the enslavement of other people. Since your friend loves old movies, remind her that “Gone With the Wind” was set during the Civil War and Reconstruction, times in our culture that were woefully unfair to many citizens.

https://www.uexpress.com/sense-and-sensitivity/2019/11/27/1/friend-wants-to-pull-daughter-from

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Save yourselves, don't read the comments to the article at uexpress.

Wouldn't even think of it.

I probably would have lightly said "well, except for the part where you own people like property and there's a war ostensibly being fought over whether that's okay" back when the fantasy first came up, but I am That Person who will politely puncture someone's white supremacist fantasy about Lyfe In Ye Olden Dayze.

Given that LW didn't say anything the first time, maybe they could keep an ear out, and the next time something like that comes up, gently point out the inherent bigotry of the new friend's perspectives. For someone like this, it's never just limited to a fantasy where she's the lady of the manor with slaves to attend on her every whim; there's a mindset behind it and it will come out in other ways over the course of LW's relationship with her.

I think there's a fantasy world where you can replace 'staff of dozens' (paid or enslaved; I'm in the UK and people here are more likely imagining Downton Abbey than GwtW) with 'technology' which, kinda maybe ish works in parts (I don't need a scullery maid, I've got a dishwasher; I don't need to pay someone to vacuum, I could buy a Roomba), but doesn't give you the 'lifestyle' because that depends so much on the social structures; in a way that people possible haven't examined very hard.

Yeah, exactly - or there's a version of this fantasy where the staff ARE paid but they're all one big happy family, which you see in things like Hallmark Christmas movies and the Lindsay Lohan version of The Parent Trap and I think Downton to an extent, too.

IDK, I think it's not a bad idea to point out that historically any sort of residence and property like this was only possible through gross exploitation, whether it's slavery or some other form of serfdom or indenture. Regardless of how aware they already were, it should be possible to turn the conversation to that. But pointing it out in passing or casually should be okay, because once they think about it most people would realize that it's true.

Also there are modern experiences in the hospitality industry and in stately homes preserved as museums and for historical value that don't always show, or even hint at, the labor involved.

It feels like parts of the hospitality industry are trying to present a fantasy that there are humans bringing you your food and answering your questions, but robots or magic wands behind the scenes: as if restaurant dishes and hotel sheets washed themselves.

Totally. When in fact they're often outsourced to temp workers so they can be paid as little as possible and not offered any benefits.

I was just reading an article where, apparently, manor house tours in the UK are adjusting to modern attitudes by focusing a lot more on labor practices instead of the lifestyles of the rich of the past, in much the same way that plantation tours in the US are increasingly putting a spotlight, no matter how small, on enslaved people - the article explicitly linked this to the popularity of Downton Abbey.

...in theory, this advice is good.

In practice, putting it the way this advice does is basically designed to make her defensive and refuse to listen to you ever again (ETA as evidenced by the comments, which you are right, I should not have read). If the goal was to express your emotions at her, then it's fine, you're allowed to do that, but if you actually want to help out a friend, maybe put it more gently than "your dreams are offensive to me personally". Maybe something more like "It is nice to dream about having that kind of glamour, but I myself can never get past the horror that lurks in the background of those kinds of settings." And see where it goes.

Edited 2019-11-27 15:07 (UTC)

Yeah I feel like your approach would be more long term impactful.

Certainly provides food for thought that would hopefully provoke change in attitudes.

Mirabile visu, I agree with Harriette (at least somewhat). I wouldn't use those phrasings, though.