agonyaunt | (no subject)

There are a few words and phrases that are automatic red flags to me, and "slap in the face" is one of them, unless you are talking about that one scene with Hermione and Draco. (I also don't like "walking on eggshells" or "resent".)

As usual, the person pulling out that phrase doesn't disappoint. In no possible way can this be construed as a personal insult, yet there they are, claiming it is!

For everybody's mental health, she ought to never speak to her sister again. Sis will probably thank me for this advice....

(Also, somebody's bound to say this, so no, "literally" does not mean "figuratively". It is an intensifier, and has been used as an intensifier, similarly to "really" and "truly", for several hundred years, or exactly as long as it's had its figurative meaning of "accurate, factual", including by such esteemed writers as Jane Austen and Mark Twain. The original meaning of "literal" is "of or relating to letters". If you wouldn't say "it wasn't real" in response to "this is really a slap in the face", don't say "it wasn't literal" in response to this.)

"as an underdeveloped adult, lives in a bubble without any consideration of her impact"

Wow, LW, with all that seething contempt for your sister just STEAMING off your letter, I can't imagine why she wouldn't gratefully obey any and all of your helpful directives about how to live her life!

I imagine it never actually occurred to you to... ask her why she wanted a dog of that specific breed, or talk to her about her own principles of pet ownership? (WITHOUT the assumption that she's immature and unenlightened and terrible, unlike your virtuous self.)

Anyway, it's too late, your awful sibling dynamic has calcified and you don't want to change it, you just want to bludgeon her with how Right and Good you are and how Wrong and Bad she is. My actual advice is "leave it alone and don't talk to her about pets ever, you'll both be happier that way."

^^^Thiiiiiis!

Wow, LW, with all that seething contempt for your sister just STEAMING off your letter, I can't imagine why she wouldn't gratefully obey any and all of your helpful directives about how to live her life!

It's a complete mystery!

I think I know who doesn't need to be invited over to play with the new puppy.

Honestly, as someone who's seen bad animal foster/rescue situations that end up being medical and behavioural neglect, and having adopted animals from rescues that turned out not to have done their due diligence about medical issues: I can 100% understand if having the LW and co as siblings made their sister more determined to get a puppy from a reputable breeder!

Right? My sister just yesterday had to have my father and her husband return a dog to the shelter about a year after adopting him because she is due to give birth any day, the dog is a fear-biter, and the shelter has been aggressively trying to put her off instead of helping to find the dog a home he will be safe and happy in, or even helping her grapple with the situation she and her husband find themselves in. They've had the dog about eighteen months, and then she got pregnant after they discovered the dog had problems with fear-biting. The shelter's position is basically that anyone surrendering an animal for any reason is probably a selfish human, but they've been working very hard on helping the dog cope with his environment, working with veterinary behaviorists, etc. He's just not safe to have around an infant, and he won't be happy with the sudden changes in any case, but people understandably do not want to take on a dog who needs extensive care and rehabbing.

I'm so angry about the way that rescues and this rescue in particular have treated her and her husband I could spit. Especially when the rescue she adopted him from has taken up two counties' animal control responsibilities and refuses to work with people to take animals in on any kind of reasonable time scale.

I have friends who got pets from a rescue org and the org was so desperate to place the dogs that, no exaggeration, they lied about barking, housebrokenness, getting-along-with-other-dogs, everything. My friends are kind, good, people and did keep the animals, but they had to go to great personal expense and inconvenience to do it.

Given that I'm already all up in this thread being super judgy then I judge rescue orgs that act like this with all the power of my judgy judgyness.

This does not help the prospective owners or the dogs or other rescue orgs or shelters who get a bad rap and often end up with regaining responsibility for these dogs when it doesn't work out.

My sister and her husband are also kind, good people, and if my sister hadn't gotten pregnant, I sincerely believe they would still be working with the dog. If they'd had more time, I think he could be rehabbed if they were willing to significantly change certain aspects of their lifestyle (traveling significantly less often, for one; continuing to work on confidence building in uncertain situations; never, ever boarding him again). They did really good work with a veterinary behaviorist and with dog trainers specializing in reactivity and mouthiness. They worked very hard, and with more time and not having a young infant, I think they would have been able to manage him safely.

There's a chance the rescue didn't lie about him to start; some dogs do shut down so hard that it's not clear what their issues really are in a kennel environment, and it's possible that no one spent enough time in a situation with him where he was relaxed to find out that the biting thing was an issue. But.

The rescue should have kept in touch with them and offered support and potentially to rehome him after the first bite. And that bite happened within days of having adopted him. My sister should not have been desperately trying to get in touch with the rescue for help finding a long-term place for him right up until about three days past her goddamn due date. There were solutions if only there was more time, and I'm so angry that the rescue did not offer my family support or take responsibility for the dog when it became apparent that he was a bite risk and that an infant would be arriving.

I don't know if they will have another dog any time soon, but frankly, I will be counseling them to seek either a puppy from known parents or a dog who has been living in a home situation for some time, because I am worried about their resiliency with pets. My brother-in-law in particular is broken-hearted; my sister is broken-hearted, and the rescue tried to guilt them into not surrendering the dog with no resources and no way to help them find him a new home without lying about his history.

This was a legitimately hard situation. Rescues need to fucking accept that sometimes, hard situations without resources mean that people will need to rehome and surrender their animals, and sometimes those animals are not going to be easy to find a home for without extensive investment and support. Rescues cannot be allowed to blame all rehomes on human laziness and apathy, and that is absolutely what some rescue cultures tend to do.

Please accept my condolences for your BIL and sister; having to give up a dog isn't that much different than a pet dying. You have the comfort of knowing it's alive and being cared for, which yes, that's something, but--it's still not with you anymore, and that grief isn't any easier to bear and can take longer to move on carrying.

I actually know for a fact that the rescue literally threatened them with having to euthanize the dog if they didn't rehome him themselves, but like. They tried. And they're not fucking rescue professionals, they don't have the resources or any safe place to keep the damn dog! Oh, I'm so angry.

I have rehomed a dog and known, because we did it ourselves, that the people who took the dog loved her and were terrified two weeks after taking her home that we'd change our minds and take her back. Like, we went back to visit and check in, and they followed us about the house with big eyes and were clearly Worried about the situation, which was exactly the right reaction to see. I was fucked up about that for years afterwards. This is so much worse, and I'm still so angry about the way the rescue deliberately made the situation harder on my sister because it didn't want to take on the responsibility of either euthanizing the dog or finding him a home.

This was ATL; I was sincerely tempted at several points to try seeing what Austin Pets Alive! would do with the situation. Or even the Austin Municipal Shelter, which is pretty fucking great. I actually looked at the way that the two counties handle dog surrender out of fury and was relieved to see that Austin handles it better, but that just made me angrier because there's no reason that Atlanta should be so bad.

(The absolute worst thing is that the dog is fairly clearly rehabbable, but it would be a definite commitment and require a certain level of management for at least a couple of years, and he's not great with other animals--or my spouse and I would have considered taking him at least temporarily. But we have a blind cat and a second cat who likes dogs enough to approach dogs on lead and sniff noses with them, and my grouchy old lady dog doesn't want to deal. And he's a brindle dog with a short coat, so... fewer people who want to take on that responsibility, and I can't blame them.)

Oh, it's such a horrible situation. Thank you for your condolences.

I'm so sorry for what they went through; that just must have made a bad situation hellish. And also my sympathy to you: a lot of people don't get the decision to rehome a dog is never easy and very rarely one someone does if they have any realistic options. I had to find homes for my baby rabbits (long story) and while yes, I wanted to, I was prepared, I knew this would happen from the moment I came home to find them in cage and realized no, Charlemagne did not somehow adopt a tiny colony of baby mice somehow, but--it was easy in the sense that I knew they were going to a home that really really wanted them, but that's about it. For you, it must have been that times about fifty and I am so sorry.

And totally with you on Austin options (as I live here). I got our German Shepherd (now honorably deceased but remembered with love) fourteen years ago at the Austin Municipal Shelter when it was still down south and Mom just got her new dog from the Austin Humane Society on Anderson; both were great experiences. I always recommend them first if someone isn't looking for a specific type and to check their websites regularly because they're good at updating quickly. Also, the staff was incredibly helpful and kind.

I have to admit, I was surprised to realize that Austin has a lot of options when it comes to pets or even just help with pets and way more than most cities its size. Austin Animal Trustees (I think they're Emancipet now?) were the ones to help me finally find a good vet to get my male rabbit fixed (ironically, my female rabbit gave birth one week before the appointment and proved 1.) that it really does only take like five seconds for a female rabbit to get knocked up and 2.) never buy that type of crappy zip ties again because he managed to chew through at least five--FIVE--in less than an hour to get that panel open. This is why I now own six rabbits and not two).

And there are no reputable breeders? I am so deeply suspicious of this person off the top, quite aside from what a terrible person they are about their sister. Perhaps you are just a jerk, LW?

Speaking as someone who grew up in the country and all our family dogs (to the present) were dumped (except two Golden Retrievers my dad got for us to play with and on occasion, warn of rattlesnakes or possums or water moccasins), came from a shelter, or were a rehoming for friend's dog--seriously?

1.) There is nothing wrong with getting a dog from a reputable, responsible breeder. Ever. Under certain conditions, in fact, it's far preferable. A responsible pet owner matches the dog to their own physical capabilities, lifestyle, home, climate, presence of children, other existing pets, finances, and time commitment. The stricter those factors are, the more they need to reduce the number of variables in choice of pet, and selecting by breed is a good way to do that.

2.) Any and all dogs are going to have variables whether purebred or not, but a shelter or rescue dog is generally going to have a lot more unknown variables, and very likely some behavior variables, health variables, or both. Matching a rescue or shelter dog to above life factors is going to take quite a bit of guesswork and require those factors be very flexible or even discardable. Acting like those factors don't or shouldn't matter, or believing that anyone can make it work if they just try hard enough is irresponsible and unethical at best and dangerous at worst.

3.) This isn't a zero sum game.

The sister in question did not abandon/neglect/dump on a farm road/fail to spay or neuter/indiscriminately breed those dogs; irresponsible pet owners did it. A dog is not in the shelter because she callously refused to adopt it; it's there because of someone else's neglect.

If the sister did not get that dog from a breeder, that would have no effect on the number of dogs at the shelters, the number of irresponsible owners, and the dog from the breeder would continue to exist, as she did not selfishly bring it into existence on the strength of her wanting it and it won't vanish from spacetime if she doesn't. Her getting this dog from a breeder is equivalent to her not getting a dog at all; the number of shelter dogs and purebreed dogs that exist remain entirely unchanged and so is the environmental impact.

Reputable breeders are not the reason shelters are full of abandoned and neglected dogs. The reason those dogs are in shelters would be, again, the actions of irresponsible pet owners. If all reputable breeders and purebreds vanished, someone who really wants a miniature poodle is not gonna sub in a pitt mix even if you superglue cotton in poodle formation on it or duct-tape a mop to a chihuahua-terrier for someone who loves Maltese; they'll either go to backyard breeders or not get a dog at all.

I want a Yorkie; I cannot afford one at this time. The absence of a Yorkie in my life--a Yorkie-shaped hole, if you will--cannot be filled by a Labrador-Pekingnese from the shelter, so I have no dog. I do have six rabbits, but they fill the rabbit-shaped hole in my life, perhaps one might say to overflowing and then some.

someone who really wants a miniature poodle is not gonna sub in a pitt mix even if you superglue cotton in poodle formation on it or duct-tape a mop to a chihuahua-terrier for someone who loves Maltese

ahahahahahahahaha, oh god. Brilliant.

Also reputable breeders consciously work to cut down the frequency of key genetic issues in their breed, like hip dysplasia and whatnot, which can be conditions associated with considerable morbidity and lowered quality of life (for both dog and owner who wants to make their animal more comfortable).

THIS. I mean, I acknowledge how much breeding for show to over-exaggerate characteristics at the expense of the animal has screwed up a lot of dogs (and entire breeds to the point of body horrro), but the solution isn't to eliminate purebreeding altogether but fix the ridiculous standards and concentrate on what you said: removing genetic anomalies, pass on positive traits and eliminate negative, improve overall health, and improve the breed for the benefit of the individual dogs and breed. I also support responsible crossbreeding of compatible breeds by people who have devoted their lives to dog breeding, know what they are doing, and are assuring it is of benefit to the animals and not, well, Bulldogs Mark II.

We can't stop pet owners from getting dogs completely inappropriate to their homes and lives, but a good dog owner can evaluate their life factors and use those to select a companion animal from a breed that will thrive in those conditions, be it a small apartment in the city or a sheep farm down south.

Honestly, I personally think that more acceptance of crossbreeding and back-crossing into existing breeds needs to be a key component of fixing the existing breeding system. Not to eliminate purebreeding, but to widen the definition of "purebred" out of a Victorian ideal of blood purity and towards a predictable type of animal which fits within a range of preferences, in exactly the same way as literally every other kind of domestic fancy does for most breeds. Deliberate crossbreeding needs to be able to sit within "responsible" breedership, and deliberate crossbreeds should be allowed to introgress into purebred gene pools in order to help better the health of these breeds.

None of which is remotely popular among the rescue-only-ever set, of course. And I mean, literally all of my current pets are rescues or strays minus the fish, but I think there's a definite role for purebred animal breeders to be stewarding animal breeding in a way that works out well for both animals and people.

Honestly, I personally think that more acceptance of crossbreeding and back-crossing into existing breeds needs to be a key component of fixing the existing breeding system.

Bless you. When I don't very carefully phrase it, elitist breed people go insane (sane ones however, carefully expand on the idea and I leanred so much from them about it).

Not to eliminate purebreeding, but to widen the definition of "purebred" out of a Victorian ideal of blood purity and towards a predictable type of animal which fits within a range of preferences, in exactly the same way as literally every other kind of domestic fancy does for most breeds.

GOD YES. Blood purity is fantasy novel nonsense; you want to think toward 'type' and create a realistic, non-dangerous for the animal, healthy model of physical, mental, and emotional traits and work toward that. And the model, I emphasize, should emphasize 'health' and 'improvement' and traits that are beneficial or at minimum, completely neutral, not stuff where the animal is impaired.

you should have a newsletter.

God yes! All the people I remember who were banging just exactly this drum have gone silent because there's so much weird racist screaming from the blood purity people, and I'm too damn tired to be working on it right now. I'm particularly bitter about the mainstream kennel club reactions to the two separate introgression projects I do know about that have been allowed to enter the main breeds: there has been much more widespread acceptance of introgressing natural bobtails into Boxers in England after docking was banned than there has for introgressing an allele for low uric acid in Dalmatians here in the US, which means the poor damn dogs aren't constantly developing fucking kidney stones. (Both of these crosses were done ~30 years ago, mind.) I think the Pedigree Dogs Exposed folks are doing the bulk of this activism right now, which is lovely to see.

I don't particularly like doodles for a whole host of reasons having to do with the hair and the basic temperaments of the retrievers involved, but I do think they're a step in the right direction... but there has to be a way to let those genes mix in the long term and give the dogs a bit more genetic variability.

[S]omeone who really wants a miniature poodle is not gonna sub in a pitt mix even if you superglue cotton in poodle formation on it or duct-tape a mop to a chihuahua-terrier for someone who loves Maltese; they'll either go to backyard breeders or not get a dog at all.

THIS. 100% TRUE.

So many rescue organizations lie about their dogs that, when I was looking for a particular breed, I gave up. I would click on something that said "(desirable breed)" and it would 1, not be anything like that breed and 2, be an obvious (usually) pit bull or chihuahua mix, and this told me that nothing the organization said was believable.

(When I did find a dog I wanted to meet and take a chance on, the rescue org treated me like a criminal who wanted to steal the baby along with the family silver. Then they disqualified me because I admitted that I didn't want to let a senior dog (who had never slept on the bed) sleep on the bed---this is how dogs get hurt, IMO! Dog gets their own bed, right beside mine. This is not how you place dogs in homes.)

I do have a pet now, and I went to a breeder for him.

We had a similar problem. The small dog rescues around here almost always get the small dogs from the shelters before they even go up on the shelter site or within five seconds or something (Exception: chihuahua and dachshund mixes). Mom had applicatoins at all of them, but 1.) some never got back to you unless (I assume) you were in the running for said dog and all of them seemed to hate phones, 2.) you had to jump through so many hoops if you got in the running, leading to 3.) for a couple, you really had to read the entire page about that dog carefully and twice because they had a really bad habit of slipping in 'dog is blind' or 'dog cannot be around cats or children' or 'dog has anxiety and bites' or 'dog has this treatable chronic condition which when you google realize means you are not in this dog's medical income bracket' after spending several paragraphs introducing said dog as the platonic ideal of dogdom and many pictures of it being adorable.

For three: I don't think they were being deceptive, honestly; these were ethical rescues with excellent reputations as far as that goes. It just--didn't seem to occur to them those were fairly important if not outright dealbreakers for some people and not just minor blips.

However! This story ends happy: a month ago my mom dropped by the nearby shelter in grim expectation of failure and they were just then doing intake on several abandoned dogs, including a small, lethally adorable Havanese?-something crossbreed and called dibs before they'd finished intake paperwork. A week later after owner not found and the dog had been checked and observed by staff, she took Rosie home and can't lie, that dog is made of unicorn hair and rainbows.

I am very glad to hear of the happy ending for your mom and Rosie!

It does seem that the rescue organizations attract a lot of people with animal hoarding tendencies and savior complexes. Only they know what is best for animals, and their opinions are facts.

Sadly, skimming dogs from the shelters leaves the shelters with a far harder job---it's discouraging, as we see, to go in and find only dogs who are mixes of breeds one already knows one wouldn't consider.

I've observed that when someone says 'but you can get a dog at the local shelter! Have you checked?' there's a greater than average chance they are waiting for any semi-legit opening to evangelize about how totally sweet pit bulls are, how they totally know someone who has it sleep with their newborn baby, and tell you how actually terriers and chihuahuas are way more prone to biting. If you make any sound or a sound occurs in your vicinity, that is interpreted as hatred of dogs classified as 'bully breeds' and it is because of people like you that pit bulls, dobermans, chows, [insert dog called a bully breed] are put to death every day instead of adopted into large families with ten cats and learn what it means to love.

I mean, there are variations here, but those are the basic elements, and if you're having this conversation online, chances go to 75% it will be all this and more, with links. There are some Labrador and German Shepard variations as both misunderstood tragic victims of rumor and/or so much more dangerous than pit bulls, but invariably, a poor chihuahua is maligned as the coup de grace. I'm not even close to a chihuahua person but invariably i want to go adopt like ten and train them to go for the Achilles tendon first so the pitty-lover falls and they can reach their throat.

The thing is yes, I agree: 'bully breeds' are generally badly behaved not because they're bad or its their nature but because of crappy owners. In the hands of a good, responsible owner, hell yes they're good dogs, I adopted a two year old German Shepherd from a shelter. THat holds true for pretty much any dog, excluding the rare dog with inborn issues.

What I have a problem with is anyone thinking there's a glut of pit bulls who once belonged to good, responsible owners who trained them well and tragically died without family or friends and that's the only reason why the dog is in the shelter and was never at any time chained to a tree in the backyard for weeks on end, ran free terrorizing the neighborhood becuase the owner thought it made him look cool to have a scary dog, or was involving in backyard dog fighting.

Sure, there are probably just as many if not more badly socialized chihuahuas who will bite, but key difference between pitbulls and chihuahuas:

1.) One of these has a tiny jaw, can barely reach my knee standing on his hind legs, and can be dealt with by well-timed drop kick, a pair of calf-high boots, or locking it in the bathroom. To die by chihuahua attack requires effort on your part to make happen; unless it hits a lucky artery early on, the process of gnawing through your throat while you passively lie there until death occurs is going to take some time, and that's assuming it doesn't get bored due to their lack of attention span and just pee on your face to assert dominance. Imagine explaining this shit to a doctor at the ER.

2.) The other is much stronger than me, much faster than me, has a jaw that can easily fit around my throat and part me from it or do a really good job trying, and the means to easily get my throat in range of said jaw is thoroughly covered by the first two items on the list. The only way to deal with this is not be within range of that dog.

This very basic math applies to Dobermans, German Shepherds, Labradors, Golden Retrievers, terriers, Maltese, insert dog here. No, I do not think Pits are evil and should all be destroyed and that's why I won't adopt one from the shelter but might if available adopt a dachshund; in the latter, assuming minimal precautions are observed, the worst that will happen is a night getting a small bite stitched unless it's a super determined dachshund and a concussion and/or a considerable period of unconscious are involved; in the former, worst case is very real possibility I won't survive long enough to get to the ER.

Forgive me for knowing how to do accurate dog math and prefer my chances of survival are as close to 100% as possible.

I mean, even ignoring aggression and dog biting, pit bull-types are difficult for many homes because:

a) if you rent, goooood luck finding dog friendly housing in most cities. My own dog is proooobably actually a Boston Terrier cross, judging from her very friendly bug eyes and big pointy ears, but she's brindle and looks enough like a pit type that it's a common guess, and who knows? She has just enough plausible deniability that I was able to squeeze her in by, effectively, squinting hard and landlords and emphasizing to the vets that it was very important that her paperwork never list her as a pit bull. And even then, she looks close enough to one that I would be sincerely concerned to move to certain places (Ontario, the UK) lest she be confiscated and destroyed, because she's got no breed history and the law is uncertainly enforced. Hurrah, I guess.

b) I find that the usual issue that leaves these dogs in shelters is that they're big, rowdy, and have zero manners. That's fine, but not everyone wants to teach a rowdy two-year-old dog who is in full-on obnoxious teenage stage and already weighs seventy pounds how to have basic manners. Some people physically can't train a dog like that without aversive aids, like prong collars and head halters, which many people are uncomfortable using.

And, like. that should be okay. Not wanting to ever have a fully adult and fully untrained large, powerful dog should be a reasonable preference!

This. Some people--perfectly nice, good people!--are terrible at training animals. There's a reason why good trainers get paid for it and really really good trainers get paid like a lot for it. And with an adolescent dog start value, you need the ability to train and the time to do it, a lot of time, and as few variables (kids, other pets, lots fo space) as possible.

I like plants but if someone put me in a greenhouse and told me I would die if I couldn't keep them alive, I'd be dead; I just--don't have a talent for it. I just bought four plants and all of them have the distinction of having--written on their labels--requiring only minimal supervision on my part and even so I have a reminder from Alexa every two days to go look at them and check their soil and a mental checklist of Plant Warning Signs to actually check becasue othrwise, I might not notice I am watering a dead plant.

By 'might', I mean 'won't notice, maybe for years'.

That's one of the things I love about the APL folks and the Love-a-Bull ones in my area--do you know, they both have programs to help people who want to volunteer to teach the young big dogs basic manners so they have the skills to be pets that fit easily into a household? Genius! There's often a perfectly good dog under the rough exterior, but not everyone knows how to get there--but if a rescue can put in a bit of elbow grease and teach the dog how to have some manners, the dog suddenly becomes way more attractive to adopters and is way more likely to stay in a home.

Once the dog has the manners, then maintaining them is so, so much easier. Same thing's true for some of the big behavioral problems that cause dogs to be rehomed, like mild separation anxiety or mild reactivity. One thing I'm beginning to see more that also fills me with joy is free or low-cost training classes and resources for people who have mild behavior problems, don't really want to rehome the dog, but don't see a good way forward. That's a good way of handling the problem, not blaming people for going "this isn't working and I don't know how to fix it."

Yeah and you will do a rescue more harm than good if you try force a square shaped rescue through a round hole. I have lhasa apsos because they are one of the most low maintainance, laziest, sleepiest dogs going and I am very fatigued. Getting a staffordshire terrier from the shelter might ease the strain, as the places are overflowing with them but I can't walk as far as that dog needs each day.

As someone who lived near a park where irresponsable breeders regularly dumped unwanted puppies, sometimes too young to survive even with care, I can see how a person who dedicates themselves to animal rescue can come to see all breeders as bad, having on the regular seen only the worst (kind of how we distrust all police or politicians until proven otherwise). But, activists can get too narrow minded, and cause the opposite effect (like my 'meat is murder!!!' sis who makes me crave a hamburger), specially if they don't tune down the self-righteous tendencies.

Am I the only one stuck on "Unconscionable"?

I mean...Unconscionable?

I couldn't get past "slap in the face", but yeah.

Dear LW:
Without responsible dog breeders, we would not have Labradors for guide dogs for blind people or beagles for fruit-and-vegetable quarantine dogs.

This LW is just a fucking PEACH. Just, ugh. This is the kind of behaviour that makes people want to react out of pure spite.

Dear LW: please cut off all contact with your sister. That'll show her.

Dear LW's sister: oh my God I am so sorry you were saddled with such a sanctimonious sibling. Ignore them. Enjoy your new puppy.

Although I would totally get the judginess if sis was getting her dog from the pet store - or from one of the breeders that have red flag warnings of irresponsibility (e.g. have puppies of multiple breeds for sale, breeders that don't include clauses about buyers being required to spay/neuter, breeder's that sell puppies just to whomever offers them money without talking to or meeting the prospective buyer to determine if they and the breed are a good match for each other, breeder's that don't offer any kind of puppy health guarantee, breeder's that don't include clauses about being willing to take back any dogs they have sold if the prospective buyer has to give the dog up).

There are a lot more irresponsible breeders than just the backyard breeders or puppy mills.

That said, there are also plenty of responsible breeders who love what they do and who do so with good responsibility and as long as sis was buying a puppy for what it actually cost with good care (aka responsible breeder prices not discount shortcut breeder prices) I wouldn't be judgy about it.

We're mostly a rescue dog family, but my brother has over they years gotten a couple of dogs from breeders when they've wanted specific breeds.

I know a breeder who will sell 'on discount' dogs who aren't up to 'breed spec' but still perfectly acceptable dogs (beagles for hunting and you've got to have some specific requirements for that)
Of course, it comes with the whole package of 'this dog will be neutered/spayed, if there's an issue and the dog needs to be surrendered I get first dibs, etc' and it's no huge discount either.

She doesn't breed often, I think once every two years?

She'd be spitting nails like a nail gun at the LW right now.

There are several breeders here--specfiically, Maltese, Yorkies, and a couple of other small dogs when I was researching getting one for my mom--who sell pet-quality puppies and adolescent dogs (either not up to spec or aren't suited to shows for some reason) about two or three times a year. Out of each litter of puppies, there was never more than two or three pet-quality available, and I only saw a pet quality adolescent once. About once every one or two years, she'd have a note stating she had a retired show dog available to be a pet only.

And holy shit yeah, there were conditions: here's what I remember from a few of them. Fill out a questionaire/interest form on the website (one required you call them to do it live) and give them a brief idea of what your home was like (kids, pets) and info on the breed at the end you had to read before submitting. If you were selected, you put down a deposit (refundable), visit their house and meet the dog's parents and the dog (and them meet you), and if approved, sign a contract to spay/neuter and get the appropriate shots when the dog came of age (if still a puppy) and contact them first before surrendering. Though one for a really expensive Maltese breeder actually required you surrender the dog to them if you needed to give it up.

Like, i cannot imagine what was required to get a retired show dog and in retrospect deeply regret I didn't call just on sheer morbid curiosity. I assume bathing it in milk and honey daily was a requirement and only allowing it to be groomed by people who get paid more an hour than I do.

(Note: If I remember correctly from that place, getting a female for breeding required faxing licenses (for breeding?), AKC/many unfamiliar acronyms memberships, references from other breeders, show history, and them visiting your home to inspect it before you could even get on a waiting list for a dog that's start value was between 8K and 12K. For a pure white baby-faced Maltese of ideally tiny proportions, 25K. That breeder did not fuck around when it came to those dogs.)

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong LW is being a sanctimonious twit.

That being said, I would possibly in their shoes be feeling just as judgy - I just wouldn't write advice columnists seeking validation about it!

Most pet stores around here have dogs that are from shelters. It's a convenient way to pick out a cat or small dog (or occasional bunny if the rabbit rescue group is in that week) without going to the shelter.

A couple of our local pet stores have an arrangement with our local Humane ssociety to do this with cats. It's pretty awesome.

Our local PetSmart does that! We got two cats from one of the cat rescues that way. It wasn't exactly an impulse buy--1.) our house had a legit mouse and then actual rat problem and with small children traps were an issue (also, the rodents were smarter than us), 2.) my son really wanted one--but it was a really convenient convergence of circumstance and wouldn't have happened if my mom hadn't been utterly charmed by Incredibly Charming Solid Black Cat right in front of her that could be conveniently dropped into her arms during her twice weekly trip for dog food.

She still has him; when Child and I moved, she was totally 'you must take the cat of course' but weirdly it was never the right time or the cat had gotten out the back door and up a tree or was in the attic doing Important Mouse Hunting where people didn't fit (how it got up there when you had to deliberately open the hatch and lower a ladder to get there was left unsaid). Three years later, I assume that cat leaves her arms only with death.

That remind me, I need to write up how my mom now has five cats and a dog, but is not, she has said many times, a cat person.

I would like to add to all of this that reading this thread has really, really put our current situation integrating a new cat with one that is less-than-happy about it (also, new kitty has not quite learned to control her claws, sigh)in perspective.

You can get tiny--yes tiny--claw sheathes on amazon if you haven't considered this optoin. We used them to train a cat out of climbing on the couch when I lived at home.

They're tiny, soft rubberish, and wear off of their own accord in about two weeks to a month (depending on cat activity), but that's generally enough time for the cat to forgo all fabric, since it doesn't affect their ability to cling to solid surfaces or jump around safely, just--poke holes in your brand new couch or climb curtains (and on occasion, fail). But in your case, if the scratching could be serious or hurt the other cat, it would act as a blunter.

They are not easy to get on--you put one on each tiny claw--but two people can do it. By observation, it made them slightly more clumsy until they adapted with hard surfaces (about two hours of hilarity then back to normal cat) but fabric and flesh were safe. Honestly, they seemed to forget they even had them on by end of day.

(Forgive me if you know about these or have used them. A surprising number of friends had never heard of them and were thrilled with an alternative to their current methods to teach the cat not to destroy furniture or hostility toward their new dog.)

We plan to ask the vet about them at our next visit. I think we can get them put on by the vet, which I would definitely shell out a few extra bucks for ;).

...I really wish we'd thought of that. OTOH, boy did that experience train me on how to work through the pain when treating rabbit ears for mites or trimming their claws. Like, the rabbits get in way more scratches if their legs get loose, but cats claws make more memorable scratches to make up for lack of quantity.

TL;DR I have a LOT of baggage around dog breeding and I still think the LW is a jerk whose sister isn't buying a dog AT her.

I don't ... get desiring a specific breed of dog. Or maybe I do? My mom was a backyard breeder of shar peis while I was growing up. Her reasons were that she "liked puppies" and that "neutering is mean." She also never got around to doing the AKC paperwork, despite all of our animals being show/breeding quality, which. Ugh.

For a couple of years I was the person who took primary care of 5-6 adult dogs and 5-10 puppies at a time, including breaking up fights and keeping our unaltered male (the chillest dog ever, thank god) away from the ones in heat. Every litter ended with my dad selling the adolescent dogs for $100 each in front of wal-mart.

I used to beg my mom to let us go to a shelter and adopt a dog in the far off hypothetical future of "when it's time to get our next dog". And the answer was always that she "wanted shar peis" and "didn't like mutts".

IDK. I'm a cat person now. Cats come in two shapes: cat and fancy.

Anyway, my ideal world would have no dogs or cats being bred for anything other than service-animal and possibly working-animal jobs, and all pets coming from a rescue situation. Then if we get to a point where the domestic cat and dog look like they might go extinct we can talk about ethical breeding again. That is obviously not going to happen in my lifetime, so I adopt my cats and donate to a couple of known-to-be-good shelters when I can.

I kind of want the opposite but come to think, it may be the same idea; there should be no need for rescues or shelters with the exception of those for feral dog/cat/pet-shaped-animal rehab, abused pets, and surrendered pets, and all pets--dogs, cats, rabbits, reptiles, etc--come from people licensed to breed animals, with healthy limits on how many litters per animal and how many total breeding pairs each can own so it doesn't go Corporate Pet Breeding, and regular required health and environment checks.

Like you wanna breed Pits to chihuahuas and people want those, go for it, but all animals involved are healthy, happy, trained, free of disease and avoidable genetic disorders, and no pet leaves for a new home without being spayed/neutered and registered. All breeders would be required to take back any animal they bred if the family can't take care of it if t at all possible; otherwise, it has to go to an affiliated surrender organization. Non-licensed breeding and owning non-registered pets would be illegal.

I mean, I know there are downsides to that approach--the Corporate Pet Breeding thing is just one of many--but owning a pet isn't a human right; it's a privilege and maybe people would think a lot more carefully about getting a dog or a cat or a rabbit if getting it required effort and thought and they sure as hell would think twice about abandoning it or abusing it, and being able to legally and safely surrender animals somewhere safe would help. It wouldn't solve all problems, but what's happening now is definitely worse.

This LW is ab absolute tool if ever I sw one. And I don't think Any was harsh enough in shutting down this BS but then she never is.

On a personal note, come on now. We cannot just neuter eeeevery animal. Most yes. And most pet owners, where I live anyway, who don't have their animals neutered are responsible. With things like allergies and different breeds showing different levels of activity (whether walking or playing), and various behaviours I do think it is better for the DOG that their personality traits are best matched to the home they are placed in.

My family has lhasa apsos ( 2 KC certified but neutered/spayed and 1 mutt who is a lhasa some-sort-of-terrier as we adopted him from a cousin who didn't buy responsibly and was told he's a pure lhasa which lolno). We have lhasas because we have chronic illnesses and can't always take the dogs on long walks. That would be neglectful if we had a collie or a lab. As it stands my dog runs away when he sees his lead! I went to the dog's trust when I was going to get a dog but frankly, I didn't know dogs. If there had been a problem I would not have been able to help that dog. I could have harmed that dog.

Now? I feel when the time comes (hopefully a long way off. He's 7 and lhasas can go 15) that I could go look at the small, less active rescues and have the confidence to go help someone.

Tl;dr back to question, the ignorant person in this letter is the writer.