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Two letters on terrible parenting choices
1. Dear Care and Feeding,
The other day, I was looking for one of my 3-year-old son “Zephyr’s” toy dinosaur cars and asked my husband “Todd” if he had any idea where it was. Todd replied that he threw it away to punish Zephyr for calling him “dumb.” I was appalled. When I asked him why he would do something so extreme, his answer was that it was “effective.” Several more of Zephyr’s dinosaur cars are missing as well, along with some of his other toys, and I had assumed they were just misplaced. I asked my husband if he had taken them away as well, and Todd said yes. For the last month or so, he has implemented a new rule: Zephyr will lose a toy whenever he does something wrong. Todd then asked whether I had noticed that Zephyr has been more compliant as of late. My son has, in fact, been more willing to follow the rules, but I have also noticed him becoming increasingly withdrawn and very protective of his belongings. We recently enrolled him in preschool, and I had assumed that was the reason behind it.
I related to Todd the changes I’ve noticed in Zephyr’s behavior, and my fear that what he is doing is emotionally damaging to our son. I told him I wanted it to stop immediately—there are other ways of enforcing rules, like time-out or taking away screen time or privileges. Todd countered that we’ve tried those punishments and they don’t work. According to him, a child Zephyr’s age is capable of understanding that “either he behaves, or soon he’ll have nothing to play with.”
Our son is a normal 3-year-old who does normal 3-year-old things like saying “no” sometimes when told to do something, or not wanting to go to bed when he’s supposed to, or being unwilling to try a new food. He’s not some hyperactive tornado who refuses to listen to anything. I am extremely concerned about how this will impact his mental health and his relationship with his dad, but my husband believes his approach is best. When I challenged Todd to find an expert in child development who would agree with him, his response was that “anything these so-called experts come up with doesn’t work in the real world.” Short of checking the trash before it’s taken out, what are my options here?
—Taking It Too Far
Dear Taking It Too Far,
It is both ridiculous and very sad that you might actually need to check the trash to make sure your husband hasn’t thrown out your 3-year-old’s belongings in a fit of pique. Zephyr is an actual child; what is Todd’s excuse for acting like one? I’d consider this a serious red flag—not only because it’s an over-the-top punishment for normal if irritating 3-year-old behavior, but also because your husband is flatly dismissing your concerns and insisting on this when you explicitly told him to stop. You are not his child; you’re supported to be an equal partner and co-parent. He shouldn’t proceed with a form of “discipline”—though really, this is just punishment—that you are not ok with.
I do worry that this may be just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Todd’s harshness and unrealistic expectations regarding toddler behavior. That he’s been so intractable when you attempted to challenge him is not a good sign. And let’s face facts: Someone who is unreasonable and overly punitive with a 3-year-old is probably not going to let up as that child gets older. Today it’s throwing away toys over minor infractions—what’s Todd going to do to an older kid who’s acting up a little, or a rebellious teenager who knows how to push his buttons? In what other ways might you have to try to shield Zephyr from Todd’s overreactions and excessive ideas about punishment? And just how much mediation and negotiation are you willing to do with your spouse, now and for the rest of your son’s life?
It should have been a major wake-up call for Todd when you told him that you worried his behavior might be damaging his relationship with your son. A parent with an ounce of humility would have taken that to heart. Their relationship may not be your responsibility, but your son’s wellbeing is.
Tell Todd that as parents, you need to be on the same page about reasonable consequences for misbehavior. He doesn’t get to unilaterally decide how your child is going to be punished, or punish Zephyr in ways you think are wrong. All sorts of punishments, including corporal methods, might be “effective” if literally all a parent cares about is a child’s compliance. But they aren’t effective if the goal is to be a loving parent whom a child can actually trust.
Let Todd know that he is mostly teaching Zephyr to fear him and his reactions, not do certain things because they are the right things to do. And make sure your husband also gets the message that because he is being so disrespectful of you, ignoring your concerns about his method of punishment, this isn’t just a parenting problem—it is now a huge problem in your marriage.
Link one
**************
2. Dear Prudence,
Recently, my friends were talking about discipling kids. During that conversation, I mentioned that when I was younger, my father would discipline my siblings and me by hitting us. One of my friends decided that she was angry and traumatized on my behalf, and she says she won’t let it go unless confront my father the way she wants me to. In fact, my siblings and I have already had this conversation with my father and quite frankly, we were demons, and spanking was one of the only ways we learned consequences. We did insane things: I remember once we thought it was a good idea to jump on a glass coffee table, even though we had done that once before and my brother fell through it and cut up his legs.
I have a good relationship with my father, as do my siblings, and now we actually talk about things. Our dad apologized and said he thought he was too scary at times and we accepted and acknowledged there were times we willfully tried to get a rise out of him.
How do I get my friend to drop this? Her childhood may have been painful for her, but I have made peace with mine. I have given her several chances to back off; do I owe it one more conversation or should I cut her off? Usually we are great, supportive friends.
—Over the Past
Dear Over the Past,
I can’t tell how direct you were with your friend about needing her to back off about this, so perhaps one more conversation is warranted. It sounds to me like you’ve settled things properly with your father, so it’s very strange (and meddlesome!) that your friend can’t seem to let this go, or that she insists you can only address it in a way that is “correct” to her.
Tell your friend that while you appreciate her concern, you’re satisfied with the way you’ve addressed your childhood with your father and with the state of your current relationship with him. Explain that if she continues to express judgment about this, you are going to consider that as grounds for pausing this friendship, because you’re not comfortable carrying on a friendship where someone feels entitled to tell you how to conduct matters with your own parents. Depending on how close you are, you might express concern for how she seems to be grappling with her own childhood, and that perhaps she’s equating her situation with yours. A kind and genuine “Hey, what’s really going on here for you?” often works wonders.
Link two
The other day, I was looking for one of my 3-year-old son “Zephyr’s” toy dinosaur cars and asked my husband “Todd” if he had any idea where it was. Todd replied that he threw it away to punish Zephyr for calling him “dumb.” I was appalled. When I asked him why he would do something so extreme, his answer was that it was “effective.” Several more of Zephyr’s dinosaur cars are missing as well, along with some of his other toys, and I had assumed they were just misplaced. I asked my husband if he had taken them away as well, and Todd said yes. For the last month or so, he has implemented a new rule: Zephyr will lose a toy whenever he does something wrong. Todd then asked whether I had noticed that Zephyr has been more compliant as of late. My son has, in fact, been more willing to follow the rules, but I have also noticed him becoming increasingly withdrawn and very protective of his belongings. We recently enrolled him in preschool, and I had assumed that was the reason behind it.
I related to Todd the changes I’ve noticed in Zephyr’s behavior, and my fear that what he is doing is emotionally damaging to our son. I told him I wanted it to stop immediately—there are other ways of enforcing rules, like time-out or taking away screen time or privileges. Todd countered that we’ve tried those punishments and they don’t work. According to him, a child Zephyr’s age is capable of understanding that “either he behaves, or soon he’ll have nothing to play with.”
Our son is a normal 3-year-old who does normal 3-year-old things like saying “no” sometimes when told to do something, or not wanting to go to bed when he’s supposed to, or being unwilling to try a new food. He’s not some hyperactive tornado who refuses to listen to anything. I am extremely concerned about how this will impact his mental health and his relationship with his dad, but my husband believes his approach is best. When I challenged Todd to find an expert in child development who would agree with him, his response was that “anything these so-called experts come up with doesn’t work in the real world.” Short of checking the trash before it’s taken out, what are my options here?
—Taking It Too Far
Dear Taking It Too Far,
It is both ridiculous and very sad that you might actually need to check the trash to make sure your husband hasn’t thrown out your 3-year-old’s belongings in a fit of pique. Zephyr is an actual child; what is Todd’s excuse for acting like one? I’d consider this a serious red flag—not only because it’s an over-the-top punishment for normal if irritating 3-year-old behavior, but also because your husband is flatly dismissing your concerns and insisting on this when you explicitly told him to stop. You are not his child; you’re supported to be an equal partner and co-parent. He shouldn’t proceed with a form of “discipline”—though really, this is just punishment—that you are not ok with.
I do worry that this may be just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Todd’s harshness and unrealistic expectations regarding toddler behavior. That he’s been so intractable when you attempted to challenge him is not a good sign. And let’s face facts: Someone who is unreasonable and overly punitive with a 3-year-old is probably not going to let up as that child gets older. Today it’s throwing away toys over minor infractions—what’s Todd going to do to an older kid who’s acting up a little, or a rebellious teenager who knows how to push his buttons? In what other ways might you have to try to shield Zephyr from Todd’s overreactions and excessive ideas about punishment? And just how much mediation and negotiation are you willing to do with your spouse, now and for the rest of your son’s life?
It should have been a major wake-up call for Todd when you told him that you worried his behavior might be damaging his relationship with your son. A parent with an ounce of humility would have taken that to heart. Their relationship may not be your responsibility, but your son’s wellbeing is.
Tell Todd that as parents, you need to be on the same page about reasonable consequences for misbehavior. He doesn’t get to unilaterally decide how your child is going to be punished, or punish Zephyr in ways you think are wrong. All sorts of punishments, including corporal methods, might be “effective” if literally all a parent cares about is a child’s compliance. But they aren’t effective if the goal is to be a loving parent whom a child can actually trust.
Let Todd know that he is mostly teaching Zephyr to fear him and his reactions, not do certain things because they are the right things to do. And make sure your husband also gets the message that because he is being so disrespectful of you, ignoring your concerns about his method of punishment, this isn’t just a parenting problem—it is now a huge problem in your marriage.
Link one
2. Dear Prudence,
Recently, my friends were talking about discipling kids. During that conversation, I mentioned that when I was younger, my father would discipline my siblings and me by hitting us. One of my friends decided that she was angry and traumatized on my behalf, and she says she won’t let it go unless confront my father the way she wants me to. In fact, my siblings and I have already had this conversation with my father and quite frankly, we were demons, and spanking was one of the only ways we learned consequences. We did insane things: I remember once we thought it was a good idea to jump on a glass coffee table, even though we had done that once before and my brother fell through it and cut up his legs.
I have a good relationship with my father, as do my siblings, and now we actually talk about things. Our dad apologized and said he thought he was too scary at times and we accepted and acknowledged there were times we willfully tried to get a rise out of him.
How do I get my friend to drop this? Her childhood may have been painful for her, but I have made peace with mine. I have given her several chances to back off; do I owe it one more conversation or should I cut her off? Usually we are great, supportive friends.
—Over the Past
Dear Over the Past,
I can’t tell how direct you were with your friend about needing her to back off about this, so perhaps one more conversation is warranted. It sounds to me like you’ve settled things properly with your father, so it’s very strange (and meddlesome!) that your friend can’t seem to let this go, or that she insists you can only address it in a way that is “correct” to her.
Tell your friend that while you appreciate her concern, you’re satisfied with the way you’ve addressed your childhood with your father and with the state of your current relationship with him. Explain that if she continues to express judgment about this, you are going to consider that as grounds for pausing this friendship, because you’re not comfortable carrying on a friendship where someone feels entitled to tell you how to conduct matters with your own parents. Depending on how close you are, you might express concern for how she seems to be grappling with her own childhood, and that perhaps she’s equating her situation with yours. A kind and genuine “Hey, what’s really going on here for you?” often works wonders.
Link two
(frozen comment) no subject
I even heard someone once say that theirs was okay because they had a contract they had signed with their parent, after discussion, about how and when corporal violence would be used, and that contract was respected. But a child can’t provide valid consent to violence being used against them by an authority figure. They’re not adults who societally have lateral power to each other (as when similar contracts are sometimes used in a consensual BDSM relationship that involves corrective discipline).
My motivation to respond to your comment is because I’ve spent the last decades of my life trying to reduce physical violence against children. When these kinds of attitudes are shared - that there’s a way to do spanking that _isn’t_ abusive; and there’s a difference between “abusive spanking” and “non-abusive spanking”, it inadvertently provides support for the idea that _some_ spanking is okay, even if not ideal or something you’d do yourself. _Some_ spanking isn’t inherently harmful and abusive. And the folks who are looking to make the case to themselves on why spanking is okay latch on to those, because they all believe the spanking _they’d_ do is the “non-abusive” kind.
And that’s why I push back. It’s not about changing your mind; you’re not going to do that, because you’re invested in a particular view of your history, just as we all are. But I can’t let the idea that there’s “non-abusive” and “abusive” categories of spanking stand unchallenged on its own, because I don’t know if there’s parents or parents-to-be who may read it and find further support for the idea that one can spank without it being abusive.
I was a groomed child who became a molested teen, and it took me a long time to get myself out of that mindset. I used to say things like “fifteen-year-okds can consent” because I believed that to be my experience, even for 10+ years afterward, and so I was speaking from my experience. The problem is that I didn’t yet understand that I wasn’t truly consenting; I’d been groomed from childhood to be pliable to the sexual wills of grown men. I cringe now when I think about how I used to post things like that, because I know I unwittingly gave ammo both to the creeps out there (who mostly want to believe that kids like me “want it” and so molesting them isn’t harmful) and the apologists (who excuse it when older people molest teens, for a variety of reasons that boil down to “it isn’t really a big deal, they’re consenting”). Giving ammo for people to feel more secure in doing harm was certainly never my intention, but what matters is the effect, and that’s the risk any time we share things that can legitimize doing harm for certain readers.
I’ve said what I felt needed to be said, and I’ll stand down. Feel free to have the last word.
(frozen comment) MOD NOTE