conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2025-02-17 09:12 pm

As a White Man, Can I Date Women of Color to Advance My Antiracism?

I’m a straight white dude and recent college grad who has very progressive beliefs and is looking for a committed partner who, in time, can equitably raise a family with me. I have almost zero honest-to-goodness physical preferences. I’ve dated women of various shapes and sizes, various skin, hair and eye colors, etc., and have been attracted to all of them.

Here’s what’s controversial among my friends: I want to prioritize dating women of color. I’m after a cross-cultural relationship. I believe very strongly that one of the main ways to combat racism is through relationships. Part of me thinks that I will always be somewhat disappointed if what ends up becoming one of the most important relationships in my life is with another white person. If someone is a woman of color, that checks a box for me in a real way. I am seeking to be antiracist in all my relationships.

Part of the reason that I prioritize it is to combat implicit bias, having grown up in a fairly white, quasi rural place. I am dedicated to educating myself on issues of racism, sexism and other forms of kyriarchy while also learning from marginalized people. For me, principles lead the way to attractions. I start by eating a food or adopting a habit because it’s good for me, and after trying it enough times, I find I really like it for what it is. The same applies to people I’m considering dating.

Both I and my hypothetical partner of color would be choosing more learning and less comfort, to put forth greater effort and practice more listening, than we otherwise would in a culturally homogeneous committed relationship. And one of the main ways that I hope to combat racism individually is by leveraging my own privilege (economic, family connections, education) for people of color, including any biracial children we bring into this world. Here’s my question: Despite my well-meaning antiracist principles, is this preference (as friends have suggested) wrong, insensitive or somehow itself racist? — Name Withheld


From the Ethicist:

Your devotion to self-improvement is impressive. Like a dish of quinoa and kale that you may once have forced down and now actively enjoy, a woman of color could, you think, raise your game, supplying something like antiracist roughage. You’d be using your erotic ecumenism to level up. Where your shallower classmates have hookups, your dates would be teach-ins. ‘‘Do the work,’’ the slogan urges, and you’re rolling up your sleeves.

A few cautions. You may be a little hasty in conflating ‘‘interracial’’ with ‘‘cross- cultural’’; it sounds as if you’d prefer to make a life with someone who basically shares your values and doesn’t have to Google words like ‘‘kyriarchy.’’ (I see that it’s a coinage by the feminist theologian Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to designate interconnected systems of domination on the basis of gender, race, religion and other identities.) And then treating a relationship like a seminar can lead to trouble: What happens when you’ve finished your fieldwork, read through the syllabus and are ready for a new instructor? If the model is, instead, a healthful dietary regimen, will you allow yourself cheat days?

That much-vaunted work ethic can, I fear, sometimes overspill its bounds. (‘‘Still working on that?’’ the waiter asks, as if we’ve been peering at our pastries through a welding hood.) Play, rather than work, may sometimes be the better approach in the romantic realm. Although you’re not objectifying your hypothetical partner, you are, just a little, instrumentalizing her. That’s not to say you aren’t entitled to pursue this campaign of strenuous self-optimizing. Just be transparent about your box-checking ambitions. Perhaps some prospects will be grateful for your offer to put your privileges at their disposal while you embark on your journey of uplift. But — how to put this? — I suspect that most would rather be your honey bun than your grain bowl.

Link
dine: (huh - katemonkey)

[personal profile] dine 2025-02-18 02:18 am (UTC)(link)
upon reading that subject line, my eyebrows went up so far that they were practically in my hairline, and I really was hoping for a harder slapdown than that response
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)

if this is for real

[personal profile] redbird 2025-02-18 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
I hope this clown warns any women he's trying to date that their race "checks a box for him," so they don't waste time and energy on him.
full_metal_ox: A gold Chinese Metal Ox zodiac charm. (Default)

[personal profile] full_metal_ox 2025-02-18 02:39 am (UTC)(link)
And then treating a relationship like a seminar can lead to trouble: What happens when you’ve finished your fieldwork, read through the syllabus and are ready for a new instructor? If the model is, instead, a healthful dietary regimen, will you allow yourself cheat days?

Which can lead to Social Justice Pokémon collection.

Perhaps you’ve heard of the metaphor of men who approach women as puzzle boxes containing a Tasty Sex Treat? You’re treating partners of color as puzzle boxes full of Nutritious Enlightenment Spinach.
raine: (Default)

[personal profile] raine 2025-02-18 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
Speaking as a mixed-race child, that whole Nutritious Enlightenment Spinach metaphor both cracked me up and made me sad, because holy cow, I've met some people who totally approach women like that.
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2025-02-18 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, nobody ever knows any white dudes who are married to women of color and racist as fuck, that's not something many of us know MULTIPLE versions of. Also when you use your romantic relationship as a substitute for doing the work in other areas, it never, ever spills over on your partner, their family of origin, any potential kids....
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2025-02-18 03:07 am (UTC)(link)
Um, LW, given the history of white men's relationships with women of color in the United States, dating a woman of color is not necessarily the "look! I'm not racist!" move that you think it is.

Also, have you thought through how the folks in your theoretical partner's own culture are going to react to your relationship -- not only how her family and friends will treat you, but also how they'll treat her?

And can't you do some of the same work by slowly building close and committed friendships with people of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds? If you can't form a close friendship with a person who's not from your white background, what makes you think you can form a stable marriage?
julian: Picture of the sign for Julian Street. (Default)

[personal profile] julian 2025-02-18 04:06 am (UTC)(link)
On the one hand, when I realized I was bi, it took me awhile to get used to the idea of dating a woman.

On the other hand, he's exorcizing and othering people, in his enthusiasm to get to know them better.

So: internalize your beliefs, dude, get more compassionate and real, and less academic about it all.
landofnowhere: (Default)

[personal profile] landofnowhere 2025-02-18 11:13 am (UTC)(link)
I think you meant "exoticizing", but "exorcizing" is an amusing typo.
julian: Picture of the sign for Julian Street. (Default)

[personal profile] julian 2025-02-18 01:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Shoot, yes. Stoopid auto carrot. (*He* needs some exorcizing, really...)
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-02-18 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Urgh, isn't dating someone because of their race

rather than dating someone because of who they are as a *person*

a form of racism and fetishization?
green_grrl: (Default)

[personal profile] green_grrl 2025-02-18 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
If he were really committed to his progressive beliefs, he’d do his part to both avoid perpetuating the subjugation of women in marriage and break down society’s heteronormativity by dating a man. /s

Anyhoo, I appreciate the ethicist point out that cross-cultural vs interracial would not necessarily check the same boxes for him. I don’t see him reacting well when his African fiancée expects him to pay a bride price to her family, or when his Latina wife insists they’re baptizing their baby in the Catholic Church.
matsushima: いえいえアナタじゃ踊れませんわ! (absolutely not)

[personal profile] matsushima 2025-02-18 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, buddy, if you're choosing to date WOC for their usefulness to your self improvement (or self image…), you need to go back to Antiracism 101.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2025-02-18 05:24 am (UTC)(link)
Dude. Dude. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

no
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2025-02-18 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
Dude. NoOoOoOoOo. I do not have enough hands to facepalm with.
minoanmiss: Minoan Lady walking down a mountainside from a 'peak sanctuary' (Lady at Mountain-Peak Sanctuary)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-02-18 01:30 pm (UTC)(link)

And also the necessary clues, most awesomely.

Edited 2025-02-18 13:46 (UTC)
firecat: red panda, winking (Default)

[personal profile] firecat 2025-02-18 08:00 am (UTC)(link)
Hands up! This is a raid by the bad metaphor police!
oursin: Hedgehog saying bite me (Bite me hedgehog)

[personal profile] oursin 2025-02-18 10:12 am (UTC)(link)
Well, okay, I will perhaps give him a tiny point for thinking that she is there for improving him, rather than being like one of thoe Victorian bourgeois males who decided to take a factory-girl and Raise Her To Their Level through education and training to be a Fit Wife -

But although he may be looking for 'a perfect woman, nobly planned, to warn, to comfort and command', maybe he also needs to work on his cis heteronormative assumptions and I would be tempted to throw that into the mix if he is so eager to manifest his progressive ideals....
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2025-02-18 11:26 am (UTC)(link)
I think both are bad and he does not get even a tiny point.

"My wife makes me so much better! When she goes away for the weekend, she comes home to a house in shambles, because I don't do anything she doesn't tell me directly to do at least four times but then I do it so I'm better go me." Not points-worthy.

I mean, yes, ideally all people in relationships learn from each other, but...that's not this.
minoanmiss: Nubian girl with dubious facial expression (dubious Nubian girl)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-02-18 01:29 pm (UTC)(link)

Ugh, no, "my wife is here to be my learning experience" isn't materially better than "my wife is here to be civilized and modified by me into precisely what I want." ughghhghghghg.

full_metal_ox: A gold Chinese Metal Ox zodiac charm. (Default)

[personal profile] full_metal_ox 2025-02-18 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
The Angel in the Sweat Lodge (or Buddhist Temple or Storefront Gospel Church.)

(I recall Bill Maher decrying Indian casinos because they sully Native Americans’ spirituality; they’re the conscience of this country. I wanted to fling poop at the screen; it’s not Native Americans’ job to be White Americans’ anything, particularly not our vicarious repositories of virtue that we can’t be bothered to practice ourselves.)

Citation: here at about 5:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vy9Fm0fqDU
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Default)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-02-19 04:58 am (UTC)(link)

The same Bill Maher who said that people who object to the practice of dressing up as carictures of Native Americans are so wrong we cause others to vote for Trump?

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate him. I could rant about him for DAYS. I once lived with an ardent fan of his. forcibly stops myself

minoanmiss: Statuette of Minoan woman in worshipful pose. (Statuette Worshipper)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-02-18 01:27 pm (UTC)(link)

I love all of the comments above mine for Getting It.

I'm wincing in all my melanin with bad memories and am just going to hug myself for a bit.

annotated_em: painting of an iguana sitting against a rock, quite disgruntled. (cranky)

[personal profile] annotated_em 2025-02-18 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Dear LW:

No.

Next question?