Dear Abby: can (married) men and women be friends?

[cereta]

DEAR ABBY: My job requires me to travel out of town several nights a week, leaving my wife home alone. She recently invited a mutual (male) friend out for dinner during my absence. He's the other half of a couple we socialize with frequently. (His wife was also out of town.)

I told her I was uncomfortable with it. I don't think married men and women should go out alone with members of the opposite sex. She maintains that it wasn't a "date," that she was just having a meal with a friend.

I value your opinion and would like to know how you feel about this. Did I overreact? Is it appropriate for a married woman to go out for a meal alone with a man other than her husband? -- FEELING CHEATED ON IN ILLINOIS

DEAR FEELING CHEATED ON: With some couples this wouldn't be an issue. However, how I feel about it is not as important as how you feel about it. If you have explained your feelings to your wife and she knows it made you uncomfortable -- innocent as it was -- then it shouldn't be repeated. I can't help but wonder how she would react if you told her you had run into the man's wife on one of your business trips and the two of you had had dinner together -- and plan to do so again in the future.

Comments

[minoanmiss]

Even though the person I most likely would have married does not actually believe this, one of the reasons I'm not married is the idea many people have that a marriage is an exchange of deeds of ownership.

Or: dude, if your wife told you all that happened was a dinner, maybe you could try trusting her, unless there's a reason you haven't told us that you shouldn't?

[cereta]

That was slashspouse's response: it's about trust. Hell, she's presumably trusting that he's not picking up women out on the road or something. He can trust her to have dinner with a friend.

My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[cereta]

I think Abby screwed the pooch on this one. It is certainly possible that there is something more to either the marriage (the husband is insecure because he's gone so often) or the dynamic among the couples (Wife A and Husband B have more in common than either does with her/his respective spouse), but the key part here is where the husband basically says that the wife should rule out half the human race as friends, or that she should not be in a social situation with another man unless she is properly chaperoned.

I get the principle of "if your spouse says it bothers him, stop," but that can't be an excuse for one partner to rule the other's life by fiat.

(As a humorous aside, I always wonder how the people who think married folks shouldn't socialize alone with someone of the sex they are attracted to cope with bisexuals.)

Oh, and Abby? Speaking as a wife who has had a male friend over for dinner while my husband was out of town: when my spouse goes on training trips for his job, he frequently socializes with the women in his class. I am fine with this. He is fine with me having a friend over. Because we trust each other and know the difference between "friend" and "date."

Re: My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[vass]

that can't be an excuse for one partner to rule the other's life by fiat.

This is the crucial part. What other things is he going to be 'uncomfortable with' his wife doing next?

Re: My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[minoanmiss]

I always wonder how the people who think married folks shouldn't socialize alone with someone of the sex they are attracted to cope with bisexuals.

Easily: they declare that bisexuals will cheat and are therefore unmarriageable, and will likely give their spouse a nasty social disease as well.

Seriously, I have heard the above from several people unconnected to each other.

Re: My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[cereta]

Yeah, I have, too.

Re: My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[redbird]

Indeed. At most, they allow that we can be involved with other bisexuals (the theory seems to be that we deserve each other, or something); I have no intention of kicking cattitude out of my bed because he isn't bi.

Re: My Issues, Let Me Show You Them.

[cassildra]

I've heard it, too. It disgusts me.

[wolfshark]

They clearly need to discuss this more, and possibly have a neutral third party help the husband untangle out his emotions, because it is about trust. Either he doesn't trust her (and has she given her reason not to?) or he does.

[chalcopyrite]

how I feel about it is not as important as how you feel about it

What about how your wife feels about it? If she feels that it was a meal with a friend .... shouldn't this have some bearing on how the situation is viewed?

FCO, those are some impressive trust issues.

[cereta]

What about how your wife feels about it?

Yyyyyyyep.

[fairestcat]

I find this advice both out of line and seriously outdated. Besides the obvious "dude, maybe you could trust your wife?" issues, I feel like within the last 20 years or so there's been a real generational shift in how mixed-gender friendships are perceived. I could never imagine not having male friends, since high school every group of friends I've had has been mixed-gender. And with my friends who are younger than I am (I'm 31) this seems to be even more the case. Yes, I've known women who were jealous of their boyfriend's relationships with other women, and men who were jealous of their girlfriend's relationships with other men, but I've always kind of thought of them as lingering bastions of mode of thinking that's, at least in mainstream US-ian culture, kind of outdated.

[derryderrydown]

I can't help but wonder how she would react if you told her you had run into the man's wife on one of your business trips and the two of you had had dinner together -- and plan to do so again in the future.

I'd think it was lovely that he had somebody to socialise with while he was away, because evenings alone in hotels can be very lonely. In fact, I'd encourage them to do it again.

I really don't think I'm especially unusual in this.

[chalcopyrite]

Exactly! Presumably he doesn't spend the entire time he's away not speaking to anyone!

(Though if he does, it might explain some of his reaction?)

[cereta]

Seriously. By sheer dint of his profession, slashspouse is in classes with mostly women when he goes for out-of-town classes. I would hate to think he's isolating himself out of some extreme notion of fidelity. Meanwhile, he has lunch with women, I have lunch with men, ALL the TIME.

[vass]

If I chose not to have close male friends, people would call me a separatist man-hating ball-breaking dyke bitch. But if a heterosexual married woman does the same thing, she's just respecting her husband's feelings.

[havocthecat]

If you have explained your feelings to your wife and she knows it made you uncomfortable -- innocent as it was -- then it shouldn't be repeated.

Because, what, her feelings mean nothing? PFFT. Whatever.

In my relationship, I'm the people person, and I'm friends with a lot of men. Mr. Havoc has this wacky thing called trust, where he knows I will do what I say I'm going to do. (And I have the same about him.)

[eleanorjane]

can't help but wonder how she would react if you told her you had run into the man's wife on one of your business trips and the two of you had had dinner together -- and plan to do so again in the future.

Presumably, as she is capable of being platonic friends with a member of the opposite sex without immediately assuming SEX, she would be fine with it? Although the letter-writer clearly doesn't believe in platonic friendships with members of the opposite sex, so maybe she _should_ worry.

Abby's response is 100% BAD.
- Privileges husband's feelings over wife's.
- Reinforces sexist gender roles crap.
- Validates husband's lack of trust in his wife.

Poor form, Abby.

[the_shoshanna]

I agree completely; as cereta said,Abby screwd the pooch on this one.

Personally, while I didn't quite jump straight to DTMFA, let's just say I can see it really well from here.

[maire]

The thing that gets me about Abby's response is that if my partner said he was uncomfortable with a social event I'd attended, I'd want to talk with him about it. But if he did so by suggesting that (a) he was feeling like I'd cheated on him and (b) he thought maybe he should 'cheat' back, I'd feel like dumping him. Of all the disrespectful, nasty responses!

However, I do feel that assuming he's a jealous bastard is rather unfair. He's clearly uncomfortable and having trouble pinpointing why.

Inviting someone out for dinner (not just meeting up for lunch or grabbing a bite while hanging out casually) feels like a 'date' to me, unless there's strong reasons for it not to be (like a complete lack of sexual chemistry).

I think his thing about not thinking it's OK for men and women to go out with members of the opposite sex is poorly phrased, but I don't think it's what he meant, literally. I think he has a problem with his wife dating people she's likely to find attractive.

And at that point, I have sympathy for him. Well-meaning people, who don't intend to form new relationships, get themselves into them sometimes through exactly this sort of behaviour. He doesn't seem to think his wife is planning to cheat, so perhaps what's bugging him is her behaving in a way he sees as being unintentionally likely to put him at risk of losing his primary relationship.

Please note that I'm not against polyamory in any way, nor do I think it's difficult to have close, non-sexual friendships with people one is attracted to.

But such friendships often don't stay non-sexual if the people involved engage in courting behaviours, like going on dates.

It sounds probable to me that he and his wife have different mental definitions of 'courting behaviour' and should talk more about this.

[fizzyblogic]

You know, I missed the memo that said married people can no longer have friends.

There should absolutely be discussions about jealousy issues in a relationship, but not necessarily so the jealous party can just refuse to trust their partner and restrict their movements. That's not a compromise, that's being jealous, untrusting and controlling. Grah.