agonyaunt | (no subject)

Dear Carolyn: I consider myself a good feminist, so I normally avoid talking in terms of gender roles, yet here I am. Is it the role of a wife and mother to help bridge a rift between a father and his grown sons?

When I have an argument with one of my sons, leading us to not communicate for a time, she just goes merrily along as if it’s none of her business. Sometimes a son needs to have explained how his actions hurt his dad, and sometimes Dad needs to be told why those actions were important to the son.

Sure, the guys should man up and talk it out, but men have egos, and you know in the real world sometimes people retreat into stubborn silence and resentment.

I’m not talking about Mom/wife taking sides, but about being a conciliator. Frankly, this attitude that she’s not involved in these two people’s sadness or happiness is one reason we’re separated (friendly) and slow-walking to a divorce.

— Functional Single Parent

Functional Single Parent: I consider myself a good masculist, yet here I am: Your “men have egos” has me rethinking my policy against falling off my chair in fits of snark.

Yes, people (of all varieties) have egos. Yes, sometimes egos persuade people (of all varieties) to retreat into stubborn silent resentment instead of regulating their emotions and using their words.

When this happens, however, mature people (of all varieties) recognize their mistakes, leash their egos and initiate reconciliation themselves, modeling for children (of all varieties) how it’s done.

They do not declare it incumbent upon the nearest mature female to goddess-splain them out of whatever messes they’ve egoed themselves into.

Sometimes people need help, yes! We don’t always get everything right, and it is healthy both to admit that and to model for kids, even grown ones, how to own our frailty. If you would like the opinion or assistance of nearby mature people (of any variety) to help you fix your mistakes, then ask them for it.

I suggest you refrain from asking this of your wife person, however, immediately after identifying her failure to read your mind (and parachute into arguments you started) as the attitude problem that’s driving your union toward divorce. I’m guessing that conversation won’t tilt in your favor. Best to wait a beat between blaming her for, and needing her for, everything.

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LW, your problems are entirely your fault.

Paging Whole Man Disposal, we have a mess for you to pick up on Aisle Eight.

I'm sure it's his wife's responsibility to deal with that mess.

Buddy, I'm curious. Has it ever happened that your wife did intervene in a fight that you and your son were involved in? Can you recall what happened at that time? Did you thank her for her timely intervention? Or did you, perhaps, tell her to butt out and that some things were best resolved between Men?

Just wondering.

"Thanks, Mom/Wife! we definitely appreciate your social skills, time, and energy, which you have deployed for our mutual benefit, and we will show our appreciation in ways that we have paid attention and know you will value!" they both definitely said every time this happened through Son's entire teen years/young adult life.

Or did you, perhaps, tell her to butt out and that some things were best resolved between Men?

Some things need to be settled the old-fashioned way.

With a pair of pearl-handled dueling pistols, or is this in a pair of swords territory?

Bare-knuckle fisticuffs, out back.

Like, if this person had been making the argument that any two people in a family might need a third party to help mediate, okay? I thought that might be where he was going, and I was prepared to say, sure, that's not NOT someone's job because of gender? but also don't make it MORE their job because of gender? And also maybe work on this skill because no one person is always going to be there and doing your own conversations is useful in close relationships?

BUT THEN THE DIVORCE THING.

"I'm divorcing my wife because my adult son and I pout and she won't come in and soothe us both." Yep definitely everyone's going to be on your side now that you explained that one, glad you wrote in to an advice columnist so they can say how right you are and you can show it to the resident woman person and demonstrate her wrongness! We are the chorus and we are for sure not rolling our eyes.

Also I think it matters what the son's actions were/tend to be. LW has gone for the vague here, and I think maybe it's because there's a trend in behaviors? But also maybe because he knows that he's in the wrong and "I don't want her to take sides" and "I'm just speaking generally about whether she should invest in BOTH OF US being okay with EACH OTHER" actually translates to "I want her to browbeat our kid into not having boundaries when I'm a shit."

Sometimes a son needs to have explained how his actions hurt his dad, and sometimes Dad needs to be told why those actions were important to the son.

And of course this action cannot be performed by the father or son, or even by the brother who's not involved in the conflict! No one with a Y chromosome can mediate this dispute! /s

I have done a certain amount of explaining to my sons why Dad is mad at them, but that's because they are children and sometimes children need to hear "don't do this thing" from both parents before it sinks in. (Spouse has done his share of saying "my son, do not do this action because it will hurt or anger your mother" as well.) And once in a while I've said to Spouse "hey, I have extra information about this thing child did that pissed you off that might change your view of the situation". But once they're adults? They can figure this out for themselves.

And I would argue that occasionally when two dumbasses both tell the same person "I had a fight with X and they don't understAAAAND [circumstances]!" and they are both having a Gift of the Magi moment, sometimes it is a kindness for that person to gently knock the two heads together! But! NOT INHERENT TO A GENDER THERE!!!

And of course this action cannot be performed by the father or son, or even by the brother who's not involved in the conflict! No one with a Y chromosome can mediate this dispute! /s

Talking to people is women's witchery.

Frankly, this attitude that she’s not involved in these two people’s sadness or happiness is one reason we’re separated (friendly) and slow-walking to a divorce.

Because your wife is right, LW. It is none of her business to pull you out of the hole you dug for yourself with your adult sons. Frankly, she should be gunning for an immediate divorce than slow-walking to it. You, LW, are responsible for fixing your own mistakes with your kids and wife, not her.

The wife should definitely speed up that walk towards divorce.

Dear LW,

Family counselling with a psychologist is a thing that exists.

You may want to look into it.

Nah. The son is an adult, the wife is separated from this guy. He can go to individual therapy or something.

LW essentially said "I don't want to make this about gender, but mediation is the role of the wife/mother." That's not exactly gender-neutral.

The conflicts between LW and his sons (plural!) must be huge if they are causing LW to divorce his wife. Generously, I can understand that one would have a problem with a partner acting indifferent to a major struggle in one's life. But I suspect that the real issue here is that LW is just a very difficult person. If LW were having one conflict with one son, perhaps LW's wife could serve as a mediator. Ongoing conflicts with multiple sons? I doubt there's anything the wife can do.

I can understand that one would have a problem with a partner acting indifferent to a major struggle in one's life.

This is key for me. If the LW's wife is acting indifferent, she is either past caring about these arguments or she knows it is futile to get involved. There is no way that appealing to authority to force her to mediate is going to improve any of the underlying problems in these relationships.

The LW is fascinating to me. I want to study him like a bug.

LW - when you are experiencing rifts in your relationships with your sons, why is your focus on your wife? Why are you using abstract concepts like 'the role of a wife' to control her? Why are you expecting your ex-wife to sort out your problems anyway?

Please definitely keep LW in a jar far away from his wife and sons.

I love how LW leaves buried until the very last sentence the rather telling detail that this woman is no longer actually, in any meaningful way, his wife.

“I’m a good feminist/I’m not racist/I’m not antisemitic/I’m a good person, BUT…”

Whatever the preamble is, “but” nullifies it.

Yes, just about the only good place to go from there is "but Lovecraft sure was!"

I love Carolyn's answer.