agonyaunt | (no subject)

Dear Care and Feeding,

While it could be viewed as an antiquated tradition, all of my brothers-in-law took my parents out to a nice dinner to ask for their “blessing” to ask for my sisters’ hand in marriage. It is just a nice family tradition. No one really asked for permission and my sisters had all planned their engagements ahead of time. My parents welcomed my boyfriend with open arms, and we are planning to get married. He is trans and comes from a very disturbing fundamentalist background. He says the thought of asking my parents for their blessing makes him want to vomit. I have tried to be understanding. I don’t ask him to come to church when we visit my family, even though it is a family tradition and our pastor is a woman. Am I awful for pressing on this? It will really hurt my parents if doesn’t happen. I have suggested I go with dinner with them and he pops the question while I am in the bathroom. Mom will get teary and Dad will want to hug. My boyfriend is digging in his heels; should I be digging in mine?

—Blessing

Dear Blessing,

You can continue to press the issue, but ultimately, you have to accept that your boyfriend’s background may prevent him from ever feeling comfortable with such an old-school tradition—one that likely brings up a lot of feelings about the conservative teachings of his upbringing.
Let him know that while the custom means a lot to your family, he doesn’t actually “require” their permission to propose to you. Remind him that your parents have embraced him and assure him that they will be excited to know that he wants to marry you. If he is unable to bring himself around, you’ll just have to explain to your parents that your boyfriend rejects certain conventions and that he doesn’t believe in asking for a woman’s parents blessing before getting engaged. Hopefully, they will understand that this ritual, while nice, isn’t necessary, and they will continue to accept him and your pending marriage.

Link

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

LW, you could sidestep this nonsense entirely by taking your parents out to a nice dinner, asking for their blessing on your marriage, and then proposing to your boyfriend yourself.

And by "this nonsense" I mean the super hurt feelings about the fact that other people have sincere convictions. "I think this is bad and damaging" trumps "It's just a nice custom" on the feelings front, sorry.

Edited 2023-10-06 04:09 (UTC)

Exactly! The boyfriend has strong convictions rooted in his most fundamental and formative memories. He's probably traumatized! Surely his emotions about an important life milestone an the associations he has with it are more important here.

Right! And it's not like he's using his trauma as a way to stop her from doing things. He's not saying "I hate church, because church is bad, therefore you can't go to church ever either". (Though I'd strongly suggest the two of them have some very serious and real discussions before marriage. At least they're not likely to have a surprise pregnancy, but nevertheless this is the sort of thing that can break up marriages once children are involved, and lots of people do sort of plan on children and somehow manage to get married without ever really talking about it with their partner.)

+1 Or it doesn't even have to be that, you could just go to a family dinner during which all four of you discuss your plans, which gives your parents a chance to express their support of the marriage to him without the ritual aspects.

LW have you discussed this with your parents at all? You say they will be very hurt if it doesn't happen, but if they really are the caring and accepting people you describe them as, they may surprise you. (And if they don't mind skipping it for him, but you find that it's meaningful to you, that's something you can discuss with your partner too.)

Stuff like this is why I have trust issues.

LW, what is more important, tradition or not poking at the scars on the psyche of someone you love? Consider that question a bit.

Also maybe examine how...you might call it "a nice family tradition" but you are still doing the thing where women are passed from parent to husband with permission rather than being free agents? You can call it whatever you like, but if your parents are really hurt and upset if the sexist rituals are not followed, I think we are out of the "nice tradition" territory and into the "still performing the kyriarchy on demand" territory.

It's funny how sometimes what you assume is a cheeky gesture at tradition turns out to be a load-bearing moment where the quiet part is expressed ritually.

[edited after cat hit send]

I wonder if this might also have the nuance of 'we wish to treat our trans SIL like our cis ones; why won't he accept the keys to our daughter?!'

Edited 2023-10-06 13:27 (UTC)

It's funny how sometimes what you assume is a cheeky gesture at tradition turns out to be a load-bearing moment where the quiet part is expressed ritually.

Brilliant!

I don’t ask him to come to church when we visit my family, even though it is a family tradition and our pastor is a woman.

I'm getting the sense you strongly think he ought to just decide to come with you, since you feel the need to be all "even though" about it, LW. "This is different... it's different here... nothing like that is happening... why are you overreacting?"

I think you're probably putting a lot of pressure on him about this kind of stuff in general -- and he's drawn a line, and you can't stand it.

If you can't bend, LW, then break (up). He deserves better than someone who won't take his troubled background into account, and worries more about their parents being hurt because of a missed tradition than about their partner being literally traumatised.

I'm getting a very distinct haze of shiny-eyed "I can fix him" vibes from LW, and I don't like it. Fiancé should pump the brakes on this marriage until the LW is very, very clear on who she is actually proposing to marry: a person who does not like religion, who really, really does not like religion, and who should not be pushed into performing religion for the LW's family for any reason.

The AP published a study the other day about the large and growing number of Americans who are not, in fact, religious, and who deeply dislike organized religion.

Edited (fix html) 2023-10-06 18:12 (UTC)

I'm getting a very distinct haze of shiny-eyed "I can fix him" vibes from LW

I hadn't really thought about it, but THIS is exactly why this letter made me so uncomfortable. Thanks for that insight.

LW could easily explain to her parents privately that this tradition negatively affects him because of his upbringing-related trauma. If the parents are as lovely as LW claims, they’re not going to be hurt by his not participating in the tradition, after they understand why he’s declining. And if they refuse to get it, place their tradition above him, and insist on being insulted by his refusal, then they’re shitty people. In that case, LW’s fiance would be better off without them as his in-laws.

I actually wonder how much this is really about the LW, but rather than admit her own feelings she is pushing them onto her parents. She hasn't talked to them! They might be completely understanding that fiance doesn't want to do the asking-for-permission thing, if they knew. But they don't know, and indeed there is a strong reasom for them not to preemptively raise it with their daughter, because "your fiance is trans so he might not want to do what our other sons-in-law have done" is not going to sound welcoming coming from them. It is OP who right now is unable to contemplate suggesting the very obvious option of get engaged -> tell parents -> take them out to dinner to celebrate. Maybe the parents might be initially hurt or suprised, but that is also ok, they'll get over it if they are decent people. Much worse things will have happened in their lives!

Right? If they’re genuinely good, understanding people, then they’re not going to have a shit-fit over this and there’s no reason for LW to feel concerned about talking to them about it. The fact that LW hasn’t even considered talking to their parents about it is… odd.