agonyaunt | (no subject)

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DEAR ABBY: I am having an issue with the lady who lives above me. I moved into my apartment a month ago because it seemed so quiet in the complex. Before signing the lease, I asked my landlord if the tenant above me is quiet because when you live on the first floor, you can sometimes hear everything going on above you. The landlord assured me that it was pretty quiet. A couple of weeks went by, and it was quiet until one Friday I heard this stomping noise above me. I thought it would go away.

Little did I know, the lady upstairs watches her two grandsons and another boy. Abby, this stomping around goes on all weekend, and it drives me crazy. I was tapping the ceiling to let her know it was getting too loud. She called our landlord and complained! My landlady is also a client of my daughter's, who is a hairstylist, so I caught heck from my daughter, too. Must I just grin and bear it, or should I say something to the lady upstairs? -- CAN'T LIVE LIKE THIS IN MICHIGAN

DEAR CAN'T LIVE LIKE THIS: When your landlady told you the renters upstairs were quiet, she lied and misled you. What you need to do now is get out of that lease. The quickest way to do that would be to consult a real estate attorney. You do not have to live like this, and your daughter should not be blaming you and siding with the person who is causing the problem.

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Oh ffs. The woman upstairs is not "causing a problem". She's living her life. People are allowed to walk around in their own apartments! People are allowed to have toddlers, either of their own or as guests, and to allow those toddlers to walk around their own apartments!

Part of having neighbors is accepting that sometimes they'll be noisy. Walking around during the daytime is normal behavior. LW is acting like this woman is constantly hosting noisy parts into the morning.

If you can't stand the sound of people walking around - don't get a first floor apartment!

If there is a villain in this story, it's whoever made the decision not to provide adequate soundproofing and insulation between apartments and floors in this building.

Are they toddlers? I'm reading this as elementary-school aged; toddlers don't have the mass to make that much noise unless they're jumping off furniture.

Thing is, LW didn't notice any noise for the first two weeks she lived there, which means that unless upstairs neighbor was out of town or is incredibly sedentary, the normal walking-around-apartment that neighbor did wasn't that noisy. I can readily believe that three kids running about and tussling are going to be a lot noisier.

And that said, neighbor has the right to have her grandkids in her place, and while kids in apartments need to be trained to rein in the extremes out of courtesy to neighbors (don't jump from the back of the sofa onto the floor!), it's not reasonable to expect kids to sit silently all day. If LW can't handle the noise, she should ask the landlord if there's another unit in the complex that she could move into.

(When I lived in an apartment, the worst noise problems I had from kids were from my downstairs neighbor whose kids visited him on the weekend and would play the TV at high volume at midnight. I went downstairs and knocked on the door and asked the kid who answered the door to please turn the TV down; they did.)

I'm reading this as elementary-school aged; toddlers don't have the mass to make that much noise unless they're jumping off furniture.

You've clearly never lived above/below toddlers. They can be so freaking noisy!

Elementary aged kids are more likely to be spending a lot of time doing sedentary things like video games, or else their caregiver is more likely to take them out of the house just to get them out of the house.

My family once had a rooster who walked more loudly than my 200+ lb dad did! I still have no idea how he accomplished it.

As someone who used to live downstairs from two small children, I promise you that toddlers can make more noise running around than your average adult. THREE small children might as well be a herd of elephants. That said, Abby needs to stuff it. The renter upstairs is a blessing. She doesn't have screaming fights with her spouse, she doesn't throw noisy parties, she doesn't chain smoke and dump her cigarette butts onto her patio while having loud conversations on speakerphone, she doesn't blast Banda music or gangster rap or Fox news at all hours of the day or night. She occasionally (not even every work day!) keeps her grandkids, who are kids. Put in some earplugs, LW, and be thankful for all of the terrible variations of close-together living that you're avoiding.

I live in a townhouse condo. The kid next door to me is ~5 years old now, but for the past 3 years I've heard her thundering through the house like a baby elephant. Really little kids have no idea of how to run quietly.

Way to overreact, Abby! This is normal for apartment life unless you are in a complex with specific rules about quiet. But if you have an apartment over you, you are going to hear footsteps!!!

She should not live in a multistory building if she needs this much quiet.

How was she misled? The actual renter is quiet. The boys aren't living there full-time. Also, they're children. Children get to live somewhere too, good god.

I kinda agree with Abby here: the landlady did mislead LW. She should have informed LW the upstairs neighbour babysat young children on the weekends. If LW had known that, they probably would not have rented that 1st floor apartment, or in that building.

There is a difference between walking sounds and non-stop stomping; between normal conversation levels and children's shouting. My province's Residential Tenancies Act requires tenants to be considerate of other tenants, which includes sounds at reasonable levels. LW should have a disinterested 3rd party visit, along with the landlady, when the kids are visiting upstairs, to confirm whether the sounds coming from that apartment are reasonable or not. If they're not reasonable, the landlady needs to tell the upstairs renter that, and let LW out of the lease. If they are reasonable, LW either breaks the lease or grins and bears it.

(This is why "no children" policies and adult-only apartments used to be popular despite how discriminatory they are.)

Edit: I see I hold the minority opinion, but tenants are responsible for their visitors too.

Edited 2023-08-19 16:04 (UTC)

I don't see any clear evidence that the landlord knew. A lease probably lists the people who will be living there (either by name or as "Jane Doe and two children"), and may have a clause about long-term visitors. But it's easy to not even think of asking the potential landlord if it will be OK for your grandchildren to visit. The landlord wouldn't have known if this was the first year the upstairs neighbor had the children visit, and might not have known if they didn't happen to be in the building at the same time as the children.

The landlady certainly knows now that the upstairs tenant babysits on weekends. (From the letter: I was tapping the ceiling to let her know it was getting too loud. She called our landlord and complained!)

Either way, tenants are responsible for the conduct of all their visitors, including children. The landlady should have checked into LW's claims of unreasonable noise from the upstairs apartment, instead of complaining to LW's daughter.

LW didn't complain to the landlord. Instead, they chose the "tap the ceiling" method, and it was the upstairs tenant who complained about being harassed.

LW's first mistake was not contacting the landlady directly at the time. Yes, the upstairs tenant complained first--it still does not mean the sounds from the upstairs apartment were reasonable when LW tapped on the ceiling. And ime it's the person causing the problem who complains first after the 2nd person reacts to it.

LW talking directly to the upstairs tenant would likely not have worked, because the tenant probably would not believe her grandkids were loud enough to create a disturbance. LW should have recorded the sounds from upstairs as they occurred, and/or had the landlady over right away to judge for herself whether it was reasonable or not.

(Decades ago when I lived in a 3rd floor apartment, my downstairs neighbours held stupidly loud and late parties almost every weekend. They held a massive party the same weekend my family was visiting from out east. My spouse asked them to turn the noise down because my 5-year-old nibling was trying to sleep. Spouse was told to f-- off. The morning after the party, my spouse and brother played bouncy ball--loudly--with my nibling in our living room. The hungover neighbours banged on the ceiling, then came up to complain about the noise (our living room was above their bedrooms and vice versa). My spouse, brother, and nibling answered the door and politely reiterated that a child was present. Neighbours never held a noisy party after that. Were we unreasonable to let nibling play bouncy ball the morning after the party? Sure. But so were the neighbours by not believing us in the first place, so imho it cancelled out.)

People are allowed to exist. They're allowed to make noise in their own homes. LW describes one thing - "stomping". What's more likely? That every weekend, all weekend, these kids are literally stomping? Or that they're simply walking around in a place they're allowed to be in?

LW doesn't say they're having loud parties or playing loud music, and I really can't believe they'd have left that out if it was the case. No, LW doesn't like them walking. That's not a reasonable complaint. People are allowed to walk in their own homes, or the homes of places they're visiting. They're even allowed to walk loudly. Being considerate of your neighbors includes understanding that sometimes, they're going to walk around in their homes and that this will make noise.

LW might do better to ask Landlord to install some basic soundproofing on the ceiling, or carpeting in the apartments, or both.

Edited 2023-08-19 20:29 (UTC)

right? kids are probably running around, DURING THE DAY, ON A WEEKEND.

this isn't the upstairs neighbors having a rager on a wednesday.

People are allowed to exist. They're allowed to make noise in their own homes.

Yes they are--and people also have to co-exist peacefully with their neighbours. That includes the upstairs tenant and her visitors. The landlady should install sound-proofing measures anyway, whether the sounds from upstairs were/are loud enough to create a disturbance or not. But in this case, imho LW is best off moving. Because this landlady, by complaining to LW's daughter, cannot be trusted even if any sound/noise issue is resolved.

Re co-existing peacefully: maybe you never heard of the controversy over adult-only condos and apartments in Ontario, Canada in the 1980s. The proliferation of "adult-only" condos, and also apartment buildings, meant that families had increasing trouble finding places to rent; couples were forced to move out of these places if they ever became parents. It was awful but it occurred in Ontario until 1988, when a board of inquiry rightfully ruled it was discrimination based on family status, and thus illegal because it contravened the Human Rights Code. Where I live, adult-only apartments and condos were allowed until 2018.

Your downstairs neighbors sound terrible, but I don't think it would have been better if they tried to get the landlord to ban your nibling from the building.

Family and nibling left a few days later, so banning the nibling is kinda moot, especially when they were playing at a reasonable time of morning. At the time, what mattered was that the neighbours got the point. Which they did, because their parties were quieter after that.

I think here is that everything hinges on what is a "reasonable" level of sound and whether the level of sound interferes with "reasonable enjoyment". Eg, would a TV left on at top volume be considered "reasonable"? And yes, even children's noise levels are subjected to that standard in an apartment building. So I'm willing to cut LW some slack, though they should have handled it better than they did.

Edited (edit some words) 2023-08-20 06:16 (UTC)

Well, LW's unfortunately not here, but what I've said to other people - albeit when they were the ones accused of Being Too Noisy - is that you can download a decibel meter on your phone, and while they aren't as accurate as actual meters they'll still give us a baseline.

Weirdly, the people who were almost certainly in the wrong never want to do that.

My point about banning kids is that I think that will be the only practical solution to LW's problem aside of LW moving out -- I don't think most kids under 10 can be silent all daytime and many over 10 won't enjoy it. So that's basically what LW's asking for and I don't think she should.

I think here is that everything hinges on what is a "reasonable" level of sound and whether the level of sound interferes with "reasonable enjoyment".

This is definitely the crux of the matter.

I am horrified at the idea of legally allowed "adult-only" renatal housing. How did people with kids find anywhere to live?

The landlady absolutely should have left LW's daughter out of it. Complaining to her was unprofessional and unkind. On the other hand, having helped raise children and having lived downstairs from noisy children, I'm not sure what the upstairs neighbor can do besides send the kids outside -- kids make noise. If there is nowhere for them to go outside and the noise is only during the day, I don't see what else LW can reasonably expect. And broom-banging is kind of obnoxious.

sends LW a meme of someone watching TV with their kid duct-taped to the wall

I'm not sure what the upstairs neighbor can do besides send the kids outside -- kids make noise.

In my province, the standard is whether an activity interferes with another tenant's right to "reasonable enjoyment" of the premises. Kids make noise, yes--but if/when it gets to the point of stomping or shrieking inside an apartment, they kinda need to tell the kids to quiet down.

And broom-banging is kind of obnoxious.

I agree! But I figure if it gets to the point of broom-banging, the noise from the upstairs apartment must be kind of obnoxious too. LW really just needs to move out yesterday and would be better off finding an adult-only building next time.

But I figure if it gets to the point of broom-banging, the noise from the upstairs apartment must be kind of obnoxious too.

Not really. When the kids were little, they were living in an apartment where we could hear the toddler downstairs running around all day. Couldn't hear her from outside the door, though. Acoustics can be really funky if there's inadequate soundproofing, and even a very normal level of noise can be very loud to the people upstairs/downstairs.

The problem here is almost certainly that the building does not have adequate soundproofing and insulation. That's not something solved by complaining about the neighbors, though.

Our house transmits noise like a motherfucker, and the basement dweller has asked that people not walk laps over their bedroom during sleeping hours. There's carpet in most of upstairs, and aside from the Squeaky Board Right In Front of the Refrigerator, footsteps upstairs are very quiet upstairs.

Hmm.

The thing is, "kids" covers a wide developmental range. An 'average' four year old can be quiet better than an average two year old but not as well as an average eight year old, and so on. And the last time I had cause to look up statutes, daytime was basically fair game for whatever people want to do -- it would be different if LW were complaining about stomping at midnight than at midday.

Aside of senior citizens' living centers, I believe, "adult-only housing" isn't legal in the US. If it were anyone with a child would need to own a house or be homeless.

https://discriminationiswrong.com/can-apartment-complex-rent-adults/#:~:text=It%20would%20be%20illegal%20for%20a%20landlord%20to,or%20%E2%80%9CSenior%20Housing%2C%E2%80%9D%20then%20children%20may%20be%20excluded.

Adult-only housing (other than seniors' housing) used to be legal in Canada: in Ontario until 1988, and in Alberta until 2018. Alberta was the last province in Canada to do away with it.

Sheeeesh, talk about an overreaction from everyone involved. When you live in an apartment, noise is inescapable and you must have realistic expectations. Nothing in the letter warrants an escalation such as the one Abby is suggesting (consulting with an attorney). The noise is clearly coming from children (during what is likely their long summer break from school) and not an adult acting in malice. LW does not tell us when the noise happens; I would be sympathetic if the stomping is late into the night or early in the morning, but that's never specified. And to suggest the landlord knew this would happen and intentionally lied and misled LW... where did Abby get that from? Unless the previous tenants moved out specifically because of the upstairs neighbor and told the landlord, or there is a history of complaints filed against this neighbor, how would the landlord have this information?

Also, LW is lying here:

I was tapping the ceiling to let her know it was getting too loud. She called our landlord and complained! My landlady is also a client of my daughter's, who is a hairstylist, so I caught heck from my daughter, too.

"tapping" does not result in a call to the landlord, and if it does, it certainly doesn't result in the kind of call that makes the landlord yell at her hairdresser about the hairdresser's parent. Even "enraged banging with a broomstick" is unlikely to have had that reaction, absent other provocations from LW to Upstairs Neighbor.

LW is probably lying. It's entirely possible that they're both unreasonable.

Yeah, it's possible the kids are temporarily raising the noise level above normal and acceptable levels, but kids banging around during the day on the weekend is just something that is gonna happen: you can tell the neighbor it's disturbing and ask politely for accommodation, but you don't have a right to demand that children be quiet all day, and it's not grounds for breaking a normal lease.

Edited (Clarity) 2023-08-19 18:21 (UTC)

Time of day is very important here. If the jumping off furniture and shrieking is going on during reasonably expected hours of repose, you have a valid complaint. But the thing to do is write a note, saying that it's very audible downstairs, and perhaps might the boys not wear shoes in the house, or might there be a rug or something. Not bang on the ceiling as a first resort.

I've been working as a property manager for 13 years so there are a lot of things in this letter and response that really rub me the wrong way.

when you live on the first floor, you can sometimes hear everything going on above you
Yes, this is one of the risks to multi-family housing situations. Things to consider when renting: how sensitive to sound you are and the type of building you're moving into (sound will travel more through wood frame than steel & concrete slab). If you have concerns about hearing noise from above you, then you need to specifically look for a unit on a higher floor.

I was tapping the ceiling to let her know it was getting too loud.
Or maybe, just maybe, you should have gone upstairs and knocked on the door first instead of taking a passive-aggressive approach. It would have been more neighborly and probably taken a lot better than banging on the ceiling then complaining to the landlord. Especially because I get the impression that this was going on during the day, not at, like, 11 pm.

When your landlady told you the renters upstairs were quiet, she lied and misled you.
Sorry Abby, but that's bullshit. The landlord is not in the unit 24/7 and cannot be expected to have full knowledge of a tenant's every waking moment. If the landlord tends to have most visits to the building happen during regular business hours and has not received complaints of this nature before, they have no way of knowing what the noise conditions can be on the weekends that the upstairs neighbor has her grandchildren.

consult a real estate attorney
You mean housing attorney, not real estate. Also, I very strongly doubt that "My upstairs neighbor's grandchildren make noise when they're playing on weekends" would qualify as an approved reason to terminate your lease agreement early. Make sure you actually read your lease in full first.

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