agonyaunt | (no subject)

Dear Amy: I am an atheist and am keeping my spiritual beliefs close to my heart as they would offend most family members and friends who all, to various degrees, identify as believers (Christians or otherwise).

When a friend or a family member goes through seriously rough times or health issues (divorce, cancer etc.), and also in case of a friends' or family member's loved one's passing, I still offer up the expected "thoughts and prayers," as they don't know that I'm an atheist. I think it is the right sentiment to express support and comfort. Yet every time I write or verbally express "thoughts and prayers," I feel like a fraud. It feels completely empty to me.

In cards, I have expressed "My heart goes out to you,” "You are in my heart and in my thoughts,” "I feel your pain and wished I could lift it," etc., and these were heartfelt sentiments. Unfortunately, for me these sentiments just do not seem to have the same effect and impact as "prayers.” "Prayers" is what people seem to react to, need, and ultimately thank me for.

Should I keep offering "prayers" although ultimately it's an empty phrase to me, or express my feelings in other, more personal ways which do not mean quite as much to the concerned persons? Your point of view is greatly appreciated.

– Wondering Atheist

Dear Atheist: My point of view is that the “thoughts and prayers” phrase has been overused, misused, and sarcastically used so often that it has become a meme and therefore free of any specific meaning – regardless of the faith stance of the person using or receiving the phrase. The personal phrases you use instead are thoughtful and sincere.

You seem to understand that “prayers” are more valuable to the recipient than your personal thoughts or healing hopes, but I would argue that you can’t really know what people actually hear or receive when they are suffering or under duress.

The most important thing is that you care and are offering yourself up as a concerned and supportive witness to someone else’s grief. This – is an extremely powerful expression of your humanity. If someone specifically asks you to pray for them, you might be able to do so using the broader definition of the word, which is an “earnest wish.”

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I mean, personally I feel that if LW feels that strongly about the use of the word "prayers" then LW should just tell all their friends and family the truth and stop hiding, and if those people are offended, oh well. They've got no business being offended over the shocking revelation that other people don't share their beliefs anyway, unless LW goes out of the way to say it in a particularly offensive way.

But presumably LW has their reasons for caring about those people and their precious, delicate feelings. They might even be good reasons if, say, these people affect LW's paycheck. So I guess they'll just have to keep struggling with this ethical dilemma which is, to be clear, almost entirely of their own making. Either keep saying "prayers" and stop worrying about it, or stop saying it and stop worrying about it, but entirely too much mental energy has been spent on this already.

Edited 2023-08-08 00:32 (UTC)

Ahahaha, Christians determined to Save One's Soul can make one's current life a living Hell. I don't blame LW for wanting to avoid that if their family might try it.

Yes, well, I'm also inclined to say that if your family sucks, cut them all off and move across the country without leaving a forwarding address.

But what am I talking about, I put up with my mother until the very day of her death, and she was... certainly very difficult in many ways. Amazing in other ways, but also difficult.

I don't pray (not my personal path), so I express sentiments similar to the LW's.

It's occasionally difficult when people are asking for prayers, but I haven't gotten any bad reactions to things like "Wishing you the absolute best" or "Hoping you get relief soon."

I feel like most people in tough times aren't paying too much attention to the specific wording vs overall sentiment. Also for people you know well, maybe worthwhile thinking of any material things you can do to help? Like send food or flowers or offer to help clean and so on... that's what i do, anyway.

I feel like LW is afraid of being revealed as an atheist, and is possibly in a community where it would be perceived as something too 'Other', cutting part of the social net they live within? Yet, like many who hide a piece of themselves, they wish they could be open?

That's how it reads to me, anyway.

Yeah, I get the same impression, or at least a version of it -- that the LW is in a context of "there are two religions: mine and political". I do get not wanting some fraught moment to devolve into a fight about religion.

As an atheist, offering that I'll pray when I know I won't, and when I know any prayers I aimed at $deity would be insincere, feels not just disingenuous but contemptuous. People I actually care about don't deserve that. I've found success with "you're in my thoughts" or similar, but then, I long ago left a region whose residents would likely keep hounding me until I spat out an agreement to pray.

Me as well.

Basically, when you're expressing condolences or similar, it's not really for you, it's for the other person.

If you know what has meaning for them, use it. You can then ADD something that's meaningful for you, if you want.

I grew up Unitarian Universalist in Massachusetts, the "I'll pray for you" phrasing is alien to me, but if I know I'm talking to someone for whom it matters, I'll use it. (And then add, like, "I'm glad you had each other for as long as you did," or something.)

I almost never read Amy because her advice is, almost without exception, underwhelming at best and often bewildering. But then, on rare occasion, she actually steps up and does right, such as her call-out here of "thoughts and prayers" as a terrible phrase. And then she points out that the LW is assuming that only the word "pray" will suffice, and noting that caring and offering are what really matter. I feel like she's just setting me up to be even more let down by the next several weeks of columns ....

Ahahaha word.

right? is this a guest Amy?

Unfortunately, for me these sentiments just do not seem to have the same effect and impact as "prayers.” "Prayers" is what people seem to react to, need, and ultimately thank me for.

What I'm getting from this is that it's not that LW thinks that saying "prayers" is more meaningful to the people in their life absent any feedback, but rather that the actual feedback LW is getting from people is that using the term "prayers" seems to mean more to the recipients based on the responses they give. And... honestly, I don't know what to do for LW in that situation. But I think Amy's advice is not just misaimed but totally running opposite to LW's actual problem, which is that people have essentially told LW that they want to hear the phrasing of "prayers" and LW doesn't believe in that and doesn't want to have to keep lying (about a sincerely held belief, ahem!) in order to offer effective comfort to others. And possibly Amy went that route because it is a harder problem to solve.

I think

senmut is also probably right in hearing an overarching undercurrent (so to speak) of LW feeling constrained about being able to express themselves authentically in general, and that this is the are where it's come to the surface. And I don't know what to suggest about that one, either.

When my father died, I got letters and emails and so on, and what I noticed was:

1. A condolence letter doesn't make you feel better about your loss -- really I think only time can do that. A condolence letter assures you that you're not experiencing your loss alone.

2. "I'll pray for you" and "I'm thinking about you" and "I'll hold you and your family in my heart" and "Dude, this sucks, and I'm sorry" all basically mean "You belong, you're part of us, we love you."

This advice is excellent. (This seems to be a week for 'LWs with problems oddly reminiscent of my own.') LW can and should abandon the mealy mouthed words they no longer vibe with and move into something real. "You'll be in my prayers" is the most overused BS ever in Christian circles anyway. "Don't forget my number when you're hurting or need anything," is a thousand times more real and more valuable. LW is completely imagining that people don't value something in that vein as much.

I wonder if what's going on with "'Prayers' is what people seem to react to, need, and ultimately thank me for," is that LW is sending a card that says "Thinking of you in your difficult time" and getting thank-you notes back that say, "Thank you for praying for us".

In which case, LW, the problem isn't that people don't take value from what you sent, it's that they are reading what you sent and assuming you meant prayers just like everyone else did. And I can see how that would bother you, but if they don't know you're an atheist, that's a reasonable assumption, and this probably isn't a time when they're carefully considering the wording on every card - do you *want* them to carefully inspect all your phrasing to decide if you actually meant prayers or not?