agonyaunt | (no subject)

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Dear Care and Feeding,

When our younger kid was born, we named her “Anna Elizabeth Smith.” When she was 4, she decided she wanted to go by “Ellie” as a nickname for her middle name, and she’s stuck to that decision ever since. She’s 8, so she’s been going by Ellie for almost half her life. Most people know her as Ellie or Elizabeth and don’t know that’s legally her middle name. We never use Anna for her unless we’re filling out forms or documents. She often forgets that her own legal name is Anna. The school attendance sheets call her Elizabeth, so she’s never had to explain herself to teachers or substitutes outside of the normal nickname thing. Absolutely no one calls her Anna … except my parents.

We don’t see them that often since we live far away. When we do see them, it’s usually a big deal. Every year, we spend a week with them around Christmas to get away from the cold, and they come up in the summer for our kids’ birthdays, which are both in the same week. For around two weeks each year, my parents constantly call her Anna. My kids are very good about correcting them. My parents apologize and make a joke about how they’re old. By the end of the week, they can sometimes remember she’s Ellie.

A month later, I’ll post a picture of Ellie in our private family group chat and my mom will say something like “Anna looks so cute with her new glasses.” Unlike when my son or daughter corrects them in-person, when my husband, my brother, his wife or myself corrects them, they get very defensive. They accuse us of calling them senile, or they play the old card and say it’s so hard to remember things that change at the age of 68.

Recently, my mother sent us beautifully knitted sweaters for each grandchild with their name and a picture showcasing the grandkid’s personality. Ellie’s sweater has her reading a book and wearing her favorite dress that matches her glasses. I’m sure Ellie would love this and wear it all the time. However, since my mom put the wrong name on it, Ellie won’t touch it. My mom got upset that I never posted a photo of Ellie wearing hers the same way she got a picture of all her other grandkids wearing theirs.

I’m not sure what to do. I don’t appreciate being yelled at or guilt tripped when I correct them on my own daughter’s name. At the same time, this isn’t a big enough deal where I want to totally rock the boat. At the end of the day, Ellie loves my parents when they’re around, and other than that she doesn’t really think about them. They aren’t part of our lives the same way my local in-laws are. Even though it deeply annoys Ellie when they’re around, I think about this far more than Ellie does. Is there anything I can do or is this just one of the minor inconveniences one needs to put up with?

– Misnaming Mishaps

Dear Misnaming Mishaps,

This may feel like a minor inconvenience, but it’s worth a serious conversation with your parents. Ellie has chosen to go by that name for a reason, and whatever that may be, it’s important to her. Her other family members and people at her school have respected this decision, while your parents have decided not to do that. I can’t imagine what their rationale might be—it may simply be that they prefer “Anna” to “Ellie” —but it seems obvious that this is willful on their part, and that has to be grating for your daughter. The sweater incident was particularly insensitive; if Ellie has gone so far as to be referred to by her nickname in all spaces, why on earth would she want a sweater that bears a name that she has categorically rejected? It’s unfortunate that your mother tried to force it upon her in that way.

Let your parents know that Ellie is very serious about being called by her chosen name, and that it would mean a lot to her (and you) for them to respect that. Explain that she would have treasured the sweater, had it been made with the accurate name. Be clear that you do not think of them as senile, and that you do respect the fact that it may be difficult for them to embrace change at this stage in their lives. However, Ellie has gone by this name for four years, which should have been more than enough time for them to adapt. Tell them that their refusal to use her adopted name (which is, after all, a common nickname for her real middle name!) hurts her feelings and that you know that they would never want to do such a thing. Occasionally slipping up and calling her “Anna” is one thing, but never calling her “Ellie” is a choice that they have made. Hopefully, confrontation will force them to pull it together and choose otherwise. If they continue to refuse, apologize to Ellie for the annoyance and let her know that she hasn’t done anything wrong to cause them to behave this way, and that they are just having a hard time letting go of what they thought her name would be when she was born.

— Jamilah

https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/03/secret-keeper-care-and-feeding.html

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Unlike when my son or daughter corrects them in-person, when my husband, my brother, his wife or myself corrects them, they get very defensive. They accuse us of calling them senile, or they play the old card and say it’s so hard to remember things that change at the age of 68.

Oh, fuck this bullshit.

LW, next time your parents pull this crap, lean way into it. If they accuse you of calling them senile, say that yes, you do think they may be experiencing some cognitive decline and you're worried about it. If they say it's hard to remember things that change at the age of 68, say that it's been four years and you're concerned about their memory. Ask them when they last spoke to a doctor about this. Ask if they'd rather schedule an appointment with a specialist the next time you visit, or if they'll do it when they visit, because you want to go with them.

Because this is ridiculous. Either they're blatantly manipulating LW, in which case I really doubt this is the only time they've used tactics like this and it's about time somebody called them on it... or they're actually experiencing some cognitive decline and are being super aggressive about it in an attempt to make it go away. That never works, of course, and we all know it, but people still do it.

If it's the latter it's probable it's not nearly as bad as they fear, in which case getting nagged into being seen by a doctor should reassure them in the end.

This is an excellent way to tackle this. I wouldn't even wait for them to misname the child again.

Next phone call or whatever, go straight to the issue of memory problems by asking when their next doctor appointments are. This is a tough conversation to have, Mom and Dad, but it would be wrong to pretend there isn't a problem! It's very concerning, but the fact that they can't remember one of the children's names is ominous, and they don't even seem to notice that they aren't remembering. What else are they forgetting? Ask about it first thing on every phone call. Discuss it in front of them with other family members as a harbinger of problems to be taken very seriously, not a bullying issue. After all, they're 68! They're extremely old! Cognitive decline happens to many people, it is not shameful!

That's a pretty good suggestion. It might succeed in disarming the carousel of conversation about how offended they are that we've heard comes up every time they get corrected.

yeah, no. not unheard of to have some cognitive decline as one ages, but 68 is on the young end for that. if they say that's the problem, time to get checked out! and if they refuse, then I'd say that if grandma & grandpa are purposefully not using their grandchild's name, maybe they don't need to interact with any of the kids for a while.

and explain to the kids why - names are important, and refusing to use someone's clearly stated preferred name is rude and hurtful, so since the grands aren't capable of being polite, they're in a time out

Yes, my partner is 62 and manages to get the names of the four trans people in his life right the vast majority of the time[1], including his 25 year old trans niece who he has known since she was born, and who transitioned in the last 5 years or so.

Regular mistakes mean either

a) the person doesn't care about getting it right; or

b) there is something cognitive/neurological going on.

[1] very very VERY rare slips ups when discussing them when the person is not present, no slip ups face to face with the person.

I will say, quite sincerely, that when the older kiddo came out as nonbinary, switching pronouns was shockingly harder than I expected, and for a long time I was getting their pronouns right but getting everybody else's wrong.

I still struggle sometimes when referencing them in the past, though slowing down and thinking carefully before telling that Cute Kid Story helps me remember.

I sometimes get the pronouns of nonbinary friends wrong

So I saved them in my phones using They as the surname eg

"Jane They"

"Susan They" etc

which helped, because it means whenever I call them I am reminded.

My mom is having noticeable cognitive decline, and messes up pronouns for my nonbinary kids frequently.

She never, ever, messes up the name of the kid who changed their name, though. It's been 4 years and she's had it solid for like 3-and-a-half.

Yeah, I call bullhockey. If Grandma has the cognitive ability to knit that detailed a sweater, she has the cognitive ability to, if not remember the exact name, at least remember "hey, Anna's not going by her first name; let me double check with LW so I put the right name on it".

(Wanna bet that the grandparents have no problem remembering someone's new name when it's a female relative who marries and takes her husband's surname?)

It would have been good to tell LW the tip about practising the correct name when the person is not present, and suggesting she pass it on to the grandparents.

eg you say to yourself when you are alone

"Ellie is my grand daughter.
Ellie likes dinosaurs and books about space.
Ellie's favourite food is ginger biscuits.
I like Ellie and I don't want to hurt her feelings by using the wrong name"

The other thing that helps is asking everyone you know to correct you if/when you get it wrong, even if Ellie is not present.

They accuse us of calling them senile, or they play the old card and say it’s so hard to remember things that change at the age of 68.

Well, which is it, LW's parents? Do you or don't you have memory problems?

Also, "at the age of 68"? Ellie changed her name four years ago. Does that mean you are 72 now, or were you already having trouble remembering when you were 64?

I was just having a conversation about this with a friend last night. My parents named me Katherine so that they could call me Katie, but 8 years ago (when I was 29) I started going by Kate instead. Somehow, this has been SO HARD TO REMEMBER for half the people in my life (despite the fact that most of them called me Kate half the time anyway, but apparently Kate-short-for-Katie is different than Kate-short-for -Katherine...?) and it drives me nuts. The worst offender is my mother, who went from calling me Kate about 75% of the time to exclusively calling me Katie now. It's disrespectful and rude.

Ugh. This type of issue is shockingly common, and it's so bizarre top me. It's obviously less violent and awful than transphobia, but in another way it's a weirder and less coherent reason for declining to use someone's chosen name. And the fact that so many people feel so entitled to systematically and egregiously insult their loved ones, usually their children, in such a pointless and petty power game... yikes.

What's very strange to me though is that a couple of the people that are the worst offenders are the ones who have legally changed their names. Like a woman who swapped her first and middle names, or a woman who changed her first name to something similar but different, or my friends who got married and insisted on being called Mrs husband's name 30 seconds after the ceremony ended. But they are the ones who cannot drop a syllable. And it really just makes me wonder, what would they do if someone they loved came out as trans? Is the name change only valid if you're getting married? Is the name change only valid if you're filing it legally? Maybe I like still having a formal name but I don't want to be Katherine every single day of my life. And maybe you should just respect it when somebody asks to be called something, provided it's not unreasonable

Exactly! I wonder this with people who refuse to honor trans people's names too. I've been talking about it lately because it's come up in my sister's department at work and she's been struggling to deal with the offending and the offended colleague. It's fundamentally just so rude and sort of confrontational a stance that the fact that people have the nerve to pair it with insisting their intentions are good or they love this person or whatever always leaves me a bit baffled.

Argh, this was my father. I have been known by fullname officially and shortname unofficially, for as long as I can remember. Except by my father, who always called me differentshortname. Which was also used by some kids at school to tease me with, so I ended up hating it. At various times over the years I asked my father to use the form of shortname I prefer, but he never would because "I've called you that since before you were born" and he acted like I was destroying our relationship by trying to stop him using it. No dad, not me.

OK, I was the "Ellie" in this situation. My parents gave me a legal name but called me by a different nickname from the time I was too young to remember, and my one set of grandparents who lived out of state were the only ones who called me legalname. This was not a big deal? It was kind of neat that Grandma called me by a name nobody else did, but also it was kind of a reminder that we didn't have the same relationship that I did with my local grandfather or that she had with her local grandkids. Not necessarily in a bad way! It felt kind of formal and respectful, like she was treating me as more of a grownup than them! (Grandpa didn't really call any of the grandkids by name, it was usually "Snoop" if anything.)

But nobody ever made a fuss about it, which probably helped.

Also, when I was an adult (and she had passed) I finally found out *why* she didn't want to call me Nickname and it was because of a bad association she had with someone she'd previously known well named Nickname (in a way that didn't really flatter Grandma, tbh).

So, LW, I would say: you admit that you're more annoyed by this than Ellie is. I would check yourself then, and make sure you're taking your cue about how upset to be from Ellie. It *is* important to respect someone's chosen name, but part of that is respecting how they choose to handle it as well. It could be Ellie is actually very upset and hiding it, but it sounds like she's actually handling it pretty well and doesn't really care that much, and it's you and the grandparents making a fuss. (Sure, the sweater thing probably sucks for Ellie, but honestly getting presents you don't like much is par for the course with out of state grandparents.)

So check in with Ellie about how to handle this! Maybe she is really upset and wants it corrected every time, in which case, carry on, but odds are she honestly does not give a damn what people are saying about each other on the grownups' facebook (your most likely answer if you bring up the "replies to photos" issues with her is "please stop posting pictures of me on Facebook mom, ewww") and she has the in-person problem handled well enough for herself already. Also, if she doesn't go by her legal name, she's going to get people calling her by it her whole life, she already seems to have the "polite correction" thing down, and unless she's got a really good reason already to be more upset than that about it, you getting her more wound up than she would have been isn't going to be helpful for her, either.

Second, there probably is a reason the grandparents don't use the right name, and you obviously aren't getting a straight answer as to why. Possibly it's that they honestly don't care enough to put the effort in. Possibly there's a secret reason that they don't want to tell you. Possibly there's a reason you already know and aren't sharing in the letter. Possibly at this point it's just a power struggle with you.

Third, there's definitely at this point a power struggle with you going on, above and beyond any question of Ellie's name. If they respond to corrections from you differently than corrections from Ellie, it's not about Ellie, and you should work on not putting her in the middle even if they want you to

(Hell, maybe they use her legalname online because she said she likes that better for online! One of the best things about not going by my legalname is that people who put stuff online about me without caring enough to ask are usually going to use a name I don't use, which makes it less likely to come up later. Either way, there's strategies to just make it clear the name they're using isn't the right one without directly confronting them, starting with just ignoring/removing comments that use the wrong name, and if they bring it up later you can say you thought they'd be embarrassed to have it stay up with the wrong name.)

I mean, a crucial difference here is that your parents had chosen a nickname to call you that wasn't your legal name, and in LW's case, the CHILD has chosen a name that isn't their legal name.

Who made the name decision is a large differentiator, here, and Ellie is upset enough not to wear a shirt with her former name on it, so I'd say she's pretty upset.

I mean, I always had the choice what to use, and I honestly don't remember how it started! Ellie was four when she picked Ellie, she may or may not remember either. If Ellie's got a strong reason to actively hate Anna, that's definitely a reason to feel stronger about it and enforce it harder with the grandparents! If Ellie's using Ellie because she's used to Ellie and her parents act like they want her to use Ellie (which sounds like it's probably the case, given that LW says she doesn't always even remember Anna is part of her name) she may not care that much at all. And LW says outright in the letter that she cares more than Ellie does.

It doesn't actually say she was upset about the sweater, just that she wouldn't wear it. I wouldn't have worn a sweater with Legalname on it either, because it would have led to everyone who saw me that day asking me why it had Legalname on it, which would have been annoying, and thus the gift would have been pretty disappointing. But I was not upset by the mere existence of a sweater with Legalname on it, and by age 8 I knew what Grandma was like.

I mean, ELLIE is the one forgetting her own legal name, not LW. And Ellie DOES care, or she'd wear the sweater with Anna on it.

Right! LW is *constantly* aware that Ellie is using a name other than her legal name, and makes it a huge part of her interactions with Grandparents. Ellie just goes by Ellie and doesn't give much thought to Anna at all, according to the letter.

She was probably disappointed by the sweater! I wouldn't have worn a sweater that didn't have the name I used, as I mentioned above, because other people are always annoying about it. But disappointing gifts are something kids don't necessarily need their parents crusading about either.

Look, I'm not saying that kids never feel strongly about this, or that it's not a good idea to back them up if they do. Sometimes they do! In which case it is, and you should go all out! But LW *says in the letter* that she is more annoyed than Ellie, and that this is something that even LW realizes might be part of the problem.

And the grandparents are definitely not great people if they're responding to corrections from LW by lashing out at LW. The grandparents are being wildly disrespectful to everyone involved! But making that fight solely about how Ellie feels about her own name should involve letting Ellie set how upset people are getting about it, and based on what's said in the letter, that's not what's happening.

I think we are coming at this from different angles. For context: I am a parent who has gone through the name changes of children twice, including one legal name change currently in-process.

Despite caring _passionately_ about not being known by their old name, my trans kid almost never _encounters_ their old name. They mostly do not have to think about it. It doesn't intrude on their notice because _everyone calls them the correct name_.

The REASON it doesn't intrude on their notice is that it intrudes on mine _all the time_. I am the one making sure they don't see anything that has their old name on it. I'm the one putting stickers over the old name in books. I'm the one making sure that even though the legal name is needed in a million places, the preferred name is listed and I'm the one enforcing that over and over again with everyone who doesn't read the preferred name (including _the goddamned gender clinic staff_).

I'm much, MUCH more annoyed about people not using my kid's name than my kid is. My kid _almost never encounters it at all_ whereas I encounter it a minimum of thrice weekly (the reminder call for therapy, logging into therapy, and signing the acknowledgment of service for therapy).

Of course LW is more annoyed than Ellie. LW has to put up with this much more than Ellie does. Even if most of the putting-up-with is from the grandparents and not, as in my case, the medical care system, it's still MUCH more often than Ellie has to deal with it, and it's dealing with it that is coming from jagoffs who OUGHT to be NOT doing it, with whom LW has a lifelong emotional relationship, so much more emotionally fraught than "the hospital has badly designed systems".

It is perfectly and completely logical and normal for the LW to care more about this than Ellie. In a very real way, it is LW's job as a parent to be much more annoyed about this than Ellie is; Ellie is 8 and should not have to deal with this aside from absolutely unavoidable circumstances.

It makes sense that you're coming at this from a different POV than me! For a trans kid in *particular* this is going to be very important, and defending their right to use the name they want to use is also very important. And there are plenty of other reasons that someone might have very strong reasons to be very upset by this. I have all the respect in the world to you for defending your kids, and I've been saying in every post that if Ellie feels strongly about what her grandparents are doing, LW should back her up as hard as she can.

But Ellie, as far as we know in the letter, isn't a trans kid. People have many different reasons for using or choosing names, and feel all different ways about it. (I say this as someone who has been shifting back and forth between names my whole life, both as a kid and an adult.) Treating it as a huge issue for everyone isn't any better than treating it as unimportant for everyone - back to preschool I have always been much more upset by people trying to tell me how I should feel about my name or trying to correct other people on it for me (especially in my absence) than by people using the wrong one. And that is also valid!

We don't have enough information in the letter to know which is the case for Ellie, but I wanted to bring in the POV that not everyone feels the same way about what name is used for them, because it is often easy to fall into defending a principle over listening to a kid (especially in something like online comments thirdhand where we don't really have any idea how the kid feels.)

What we do see in the letter is that when Ellie is confronted with the grandparents using the wrong name, she seems to handle it with grace and the help of her siblings, seems to enjoy spending time with the grandparents, and has not brought any concerns to her parents. If this is due to the fact that the parents' hard work behind the scenes means she doesn't feel strongly enough to be upset by her grandparents being annoying, that's great and good for the parents!

The grandparents are absolutely showing a ton of disrespect to the parents and to Ellie, and it's valid for LW to be upset about that! But there's an underlying issue here that's not just Ellie's name (as is usually the case) and making it all about Ellie's name won't help that part of the issue.

The REASON it doesn't intrude on their notice is that it intrudes on mine all the time. I am the one making sure they don't see anything that has their old name on it. I'm the one putting stickers over the old name in books. I'm the one making sure that even though the legal name is needed in a million places, the preferred name is listed and I'm the one enforcing that over and over again with everyone who doesn't read the preferred name (including the goddamned gender clinic staff).

I love you so much for this, you are such a fanfuckingtabulous parent, 10/10, no notes.

I'm not sure she *is* more annoyed than Ellie is, and even if she is, I think she has a right to be. Her kid refuses to wear a sweater, and she has to deal with her mom being pissy and throwing a tantrum about it. I'd be annoyed too, and so would you.

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