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So much estrangement...! And also some semi-estrangement
1. Over a year ago, I introduced my new girlfriend, who is Jewish, to my mother, who is not. (My girlfriend and I are in our 20s.) Based on my experiences growing up, I didn’t expect any issues, but my mother surprised me: She told me she didn’t like my girlfriend. After talking in circles for a while, she admitted the main thing she didn’t like was that my girlfriend is Jewish. She also told me I should not bring her home for Christmas. So we stayed away last year, and we have kept our distance since then. I call my mother every few weeks to try to keep connected, but she shuts me down fast. It’s been over two years since we’ve seen each other, and something about the holidays makes this extra hard. Is there something more I should be doing?
I am sorry about your estrangement from your mother. The loss of any close relationship can be painful, but being rejected by the people who held us as babies, who kept us safe and raised us, can be gut-wrenching. I don’t minimize the special sting during the holidays, either. Secular Christmas fantasies tend to go hard on familial love and acceptance, which are simply not the reality for many people.
It sounds as if you’re doing what you can: checking in with your mother periodically to see if there is an opening for reconciliation. I am sorry, too, that her antisemitism runs so deep. Still, aside from reiterating your willingness to talk through this issue (either alone or with a counselor), there isn’t much more you can do with her.
There is something you can do for yourself, though — and this applies to anyone who is suffering from a painful estrangement: Grieve your loss and acknowledge its special pain. Estrangements can sometimes feel even worse than death because the separation is chosen. Don’t be shy about reaching out for help. Moving forward here — by creating a family of friends, perhaps — requires recognition of the depth of your loss.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/style/holidays-family-dynamics.html
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2. DEAR ABBY: I have always been the outsider in my family. My grandma raised me because Mom was an alcoholic and ran the streets with her boyfriend. My grandma died three months ago, and I have been having a hard time dealing with it.
My mother has moved into my grandma's house and wants me to come visit her. This is a problem because everywhere I look, it reminds me of my grandma. I have told her this, but she thinks that since she's painted and decorated it differently, it shouldn't be a problem for me.
I am the only child who has anything to do with her (she gave up my oldest sister), and she uses guilt when I don't come out and help her clean or go grocery shopping for her. I was raised to believe that we should take care of our elders, but I still have issues with her not being in my life growing up. I don't know how to handle this without just refusing to go. What should I do? -- CONFLICTED IN MISSOURI
DEAR CONFLICTED: Tell your mother the truth, just as you related it to me. Explain that although she may have painted and redecorated the house, seeing the place without your grandmother in it is depressing and you are no longer willing to do it. And the next time she asks you to help her clean or go shopping for her, say no and tell her why. Unless you have left something out of your letter about your relationship with her over the last decade, I don't think you should feel obligated to her at all.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearabby/s-2765257
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3. Dear Annie: I need a little advice. My oldest son, age 42, and my youngest, 32, had a disagreement three years ago and still aren't talking to each other. What is especially heartbreaking is they have the most in common with each other out of all my children -- a total of four.
The oldest son, "Bradley," is bipolar, and he did not start treatment and medications until two years ago. The argument occurred one year before he received help. Now Bradley has admitted that it was his fault, that he was a jerk during the conversation, when he insulted my youngest son's girlfriend.
Despite this, my youngest, "Frank," REFUSES to speak to his brother, although Bradley has tried to reach out to him many times. I threw a barbecue, and Bradley, who lives in another state, came as a surprise. Frank was there and pretended to be nice. But afterward, Frank has refused to speak to Bradley, despite Bradley's many attempts to reach out.
This is hurting both boys -- and me!
I'm getting older and am not in the best of health. What terrifies me is the idea that they won't be on speaking terms if something were to happen to me. Do you have any advice? -- Hoping and Praying
Dear Hoping and Praying: Of course it is hurting you. Having your children who you love so much not show each other love is so painful. Remember, they do love each other, but they simply suppressed those feelings because of Frank's anger toward Bradley. The fact that Bradley has been diagnosed as bipolar and that he is better with treatment is something that should be explained to Frank, and he should offer forgiveness to his oldest brother.
Remind Frank of how much fun they had when they were young, and how important Bradley was to him when they were growing up. Keep encouraging Frank to let go of his stubbornness. It might also help if Bradley were to write a sincere letter of apology to Frank's girlfriend, explaining that it was caused by his medical condition, and tell her of his treatment and the steps he is taking to stay on an even keel emotionally.
Maybe the holiday spirit will help soften some of the old grudges that your sons are carrying.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2764021
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4. Dear Annie: My daughter and son-in-law moved from Pennsylvania, where I live, to North Carolina to be close to his family. They moved without giving me any real notice. My daughter had mentioned they might be moving, but I did not find out for sure until the day before they moved.
That was eight years ago. Because I am poor and a widow, I have had little to no contact with the kids. The one trip I did make cost me $1,000.
They can afford almost yearly Disney trips. During the eight years, they have only visited me once -- spending an hour with me, and I paid for dinner. I asked what they were doing the next day, and they said they had to return to North Carolina.
I found out later that they spent the next day in Pennsylvania at Hershey Park. I feel like they don't want me in those kids' lives.
They now have a little girl who is 7 years old, and she barely knows me. The same is true for all their kids. Yet my daughter's mother-in-law, who lives in North Carolina, sees them all the time.
Also, I found out, to my adamant objection, that the little girl wears makeup, lipstick, nail polish and God only knows what else. I swear, the mother-in-law wants this 7-year-old pregnant as soon as possible. The mother-in-law seems to have money and basically pays all their bills. I never raised my daughter to be that way, so I can't figure it out.
Anyway, the kids are getting older every day, and I have missed out on so much with them. I really am beginning to hate my daughter and son-in-law for moving to be where the mother-in-law is. I hate the mother-in-law for babying those two and not letting them grow up. Am I wrong? -- Disgusted with Choices
Dear Disgusted with Choices: I think you are more hurt than disgusted. And that hurt is turning into anger, judgment and jealousy. The way your daughter and son-in-law have treated you is not right. It would hurt any grandmother to be shut out of their children's, and grandchildren's, lives the way you have been. The only thing you can control is how you react to their hurtful actions. The best way is to forgive them, not for their sake, but for your own. Let go of the past, and move forward. Now is the time to try to have a relationship with them by asking for one. But leave the criticism of their parenting at the door.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2764482
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5. Dear Prudence,
Is it OK to not see my siblings in person anymore? This summer after a family event I had planned I discovered my siblings are not great people and are not willing to invest the same amount of time and effort into my life as I invest in theirs.
They had been asked to perform some tasks I was not able to do, and they assured me that they could do them, but when it came down to the actual day, I had to help with their tasks more than I should have had to. In addition, they were just judgmental of the entire event when everyone else said what a wonderful night it was.
After this, I was upset and disheartened. I didn’t blow up at them or complain as I spent a lot of time during the event dealing with their inability to follow through instead of focusing on what I needed to do that night. I did spend a few days afterward thinking about how we’d grown up, and their difficulty in giving back even just a small measure of support. I get it, it’s how we were raised, and not everyone gives the same effort. I realized I’m much happier mentally if we just continue a text/occasional call relationship instead of meeting in person. Is that OK? It just stresses me out because I feel like I’m doing the work and getting judged for everything.
—Sibling Stress
Dear Sibling Stress,
The bottom line is, you should do what you need to enjoy your life and maintain these relationships. And if that means not seeing these people in person, so be it. But I think you might be moving a little bit recklessly here.
Family events are stressful. Division of labor at family events can be a mess. People are not always at their best. I don’t know if this quite rises to the level of “We should become estranged.” Now, absolutely, don’t plan any more celebrations if nobody else is meeting you halfway or being appreciative of your efforts. But can you think of some other ways to connect with your siblings that don’t involve work? Meeting for meals? Walks or hikes? Shopping? Bowling? Try seeing them in an environment where there are no tasks and there is no need to express appreciation. You might actually enjoy each other.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2022/12/boss-wrong-name-dear-prudence-advice.html
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6. Dear Annie: Almost 15 years ago, my older sister removed me from her life after a series of messy arguments. At the time, she just stopped taking my calls and waited for me to leave family functions before going. She told our three siblings and mother that she didn't want me in her life. She likely gave them reasons but never allowed anyone to tell me.
When she ghosted me, I was heartbroken. I bugged everyone for years, asking how she was, crying about how much I missed her. I made many attempts to reconnect that were met with silence or warnings from family that she was still angry at me, but no one could ever say for what.
A few times, she asked our oldest sister to bring my kids for her to see them without me or my husband. My husband refused because he has never met her. I agreed with him.
Recently, I came to the conclusion that my sister removing me from her life was a blessing. She was toxic, and our relationship is a long history of cruelty on her part and a lack of boundaries mixed with codependency on mine. I told our oldest sister just that.
Mere days after that conversation with my oldest sister, my estranged sister messaged my teenage children on social media. She told them she was their aunt and that just because she and I don't get along doesn't mean she shouldn't have a relationship with them.
I responded by telling her she made the choice 15 years ago that we aren't family, that it was a blessing and she needs to leave my kids alone. Then I blocked her on their accounts.
She responded by sending my husband -- who she's never met or spoken to -- a message for me and then blocking him. Her argument was that I had played the victim for 15 years, that I was hateful and didn't support her. She said that I was using my kids as leverage. She called me toxic and stated that she was disappointed I didn't make any efforts to know her kids. She also stated repeatedly that I had been talking badly about her to everyone during the last 15 years.
I am very confused at this point. I don't know what she's been told for 15 years about what I've said because no one has told me anything. If I am toxic, why would she want me to have a relationship with her kids?
I believe I'm doing the right thing by keeping my teenagers away from her because I know how she treated me throughout our childhood and young adult years. She is not a safe person.
My siblings, their spouses and kids all seem to love her and have great relationships with her. It feels like most of the time, though, that if I don't reach out to them, I don't hear from them at all.
I'm now questioning if I should remove my three siblings from my life, too, as it sounds like they have been telling her I'm saying things. They've also been completely complacent in her alienation of me. -- Confused in Kansas
Dear Confused: You and your sister are, quite clearly, not on the same page. And how could you be, after you spent the last 15 years avoiding each other? You probably have completely different stories about how your relationship got to the place it's at now.
Your other siblings seem caught in the middle of a confusing situation, and it seems that nobody knows how to handle it. Rather than cutting them off, too, or using them to play a game of telephone, reach out to your estranged sister directly. Request an honest, frank conversation. Your sister certainly owes you that, especially if she wants to form relationships with your children.
It sounds like there is a lot of hurt on both sides, and hopefully, with the help of a good counselor, you and your estranged sister can move past the toxicity and arrive at a place of civility, for the sake of your children if nothing else.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2757710
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I am sorry about your estrangement from your mother. The loss of any close relationship can be painful, but being rejected by the people who held us as babies, who kept us safe and raised us, can be gut-wrenching. I don’t minimize the special sting during the holidays, either. Secular Christmas fantasies tend to go hard on familial love and acceptance, which are simply not the reality for many people.
It sounds as if you’re doing what you can: checking in with your mother periodically to see if there is an opening for reconciliation. I am sorry, too, that her antisemitism runs so deep. Still, aside from reiterating your willingness to talk through this issue (either alone or with a counselor), there isn’t much more you can do with her.
There is something you can do for yourself, though — and this applies to anyone who is suffering from a painful estrangement: Grieve your loss and acknowledge its special pain. Estrangements can sometimes feel even worse than death because the separation is chosen. Don’t be shy about reaching out for help. Moving forward here — by creating a family of friends, perhaps — requires recognition of the depth of your loss.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/style/holidays-family-dynamics.html
2. DEAR ABBY: I have always been the outsider in my family. My grandma raised me because Mom was an alcoholic and ran the streets with her boyfriend. My grandma died three months ago, and I have been having a hard time dealing with it.
My mother has moved into my grandma's house and wants me to come visit her. This is a problem because everywhere I look, it reminds me of my grandma. I have told her this, but she thinks that since she's painted and decorated it differently, it shouldn't be a problem for me.
I am the only child who has anything to do with her (she gave up my oldest sister), and she uses guilt when I don't come out and help her clean or go grocery shopping for her. I was raised to believe that we should take care of our elders, but I still have issues with her not being in my life growing up. I don't know how to handle this without just refusing to go. What should I do? -- CONFLICTED IN MISSOURI
DEAR CONFLICTED: Tell your mother the truth, just as you related it to me. Explain that although she may have painted and redecorated the house, seeing the place without your grandmother in it is depressing and you are no longer willing to do it. And the next time she asks you to help her clean or go shopping for her, say no and tell her why. Unless you have left something out of your letter about your relationship with her over the last decade, I don't think you should feel obligated to her at all.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearabby/s-2765257
3. Dear Annie: I need a little advice. My oldest son, age 42, and my youngest, 32, had a disagreement three years ago and still aren't talking to each other. What is especially heartbreaking is they have the most in common with each other out of all my children -- a total of four.
The oldest son, "Bradley," is bipolar, and he did not start treatment and medications until two years ago. The argument occurred one year before he received help. Now Bradley has admitted that it was his fault, that he was a jerk during the conversation, when he insulted my youngest son's girlfriend.
Despite this, my youngest, "Frank," REFUSES to speak to his brother, although Bradley has tried to reach out to him many times. I threw a barbecue, and Bradley, who lives in another state, came as a surprise. Frank was there and pretended to be nice. But afterward, Frank has refused to speak to Bradley, despite Bradley's many attempts to reach out.
This is hurting both boys -- and me!
I'm getting older and am not in the best of health. What terrifies me is the idea that they won't be on speaking terms if something were to happen to me. Do you have any advice? -- Hoping and Praying
Dear Hoping and Praying: Of course it is hurting you. Having your children who you love so much not show each other love is so painful. Remember, they do love each other, but they simply suppressed those feelings because of Frank's anger toward Bradley. The fact that Bradley has been diagnosed as bipolar and that he is better with treatment is something that should be explained to Frank, and he should offer forgiveness to his oldest brother.
Remind Frank of how much fun they had when they were young, and how important Bradley was to him when they were growing up. Keep encouraging Frank to let go of his stubbornness. It might also help if Bradley were to write a sincere letter of apology to Frank's girlfriend, explaining that it was caused by his medical condition, and tell her of his treatment and the steps he is taking to stay on an even keel emotionally.
Maybe the holiday spirit will help soften some of the old grudges that your sons are carrying.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2764021
4. Dear Annie: My daughter and son-in-law moved from Pennsylvania, where I live, to North Carolina to be close to his family. They moved without giving me any real notice. My daughter had mentioned they might be moving, but I did not find out for sure until the day before they moved.
That was eight years ago. Because I am poor and a widow, I have had little to no contact with the kids. The one trip I did make cost me $1,000.
They can afford almost yearly Disney trips. During the eight years, they have only visited me once -- spending an hour with me, and I paid for dinner. I asked what they were doing the next day, and they said they had to return to North Carolina.
I found out later that they spent the next day in Pennsylvania at Hershey Park. I feel like they don't want me in those kids' lives.
They now have a little girl who is 7 years old, and she barely knows me. The same is true for all their kids. Yet my daughter's mother-in-law, who lives in North Carolina, sees them all the time.
Also, I found out, to my adamant objection, that the little girl wears makeup, lipstick, nail polish and God only knows what else. I swear, the mother-in-law wants this 7-year-old pregnant as soon as possible. The mother-in-law seems to have money and basically pays all their bills. I never raised my daughter to be that way, so I can't figure it out.
Anyway, the kids are getting older every day, and I have missed out on so much with them. I really am beginning to hate my daughter and son-in-law for moving to be where the mother-in-law is. I hate the mother-in-law for babying those two and not letting them grow up. Am I wrong? -- Disgusted with Choices
Dear Disgusted with Choices: I think you are more hurt than disgusted. And that hurt is turning into anger, judgment and jealousy. The way your daughter and son-in-law have treated you is not right. It would hurt any grandmother to be shut out of their children's, and grandchildren's, lives the way you have been. The only thing you can control is how you react to their hurtful actions. The best way is to forgive them, not for their sake, but for your own. Let go of the past, and move forward. Now is the time to try to have a relationship with them by asking for one. But leave the criticism of their parenting at the door.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2764482
5. Dear Prudence,
Is it OK to not see my siblings in person anymore? This summer after a family event I had planned I discovered my siblings are not great people and are not willing to invest the same amount of time and effort into my life as I invest in theirs.
They had been asked to perform some tasks I was not able to do, and they assured me that they could do them, but when it came down to the actual day, I had to help with their tasks more than I should have had to. In addition, they were just judgmental of the entire event when everyone else said what a wonderful night it was.
After this, I was upset and disheartened. I didn’t blow up at them or complain as I spent a lot of time during the event dealing with their inability to follow through instead of focusing on what I needed to do that night. I did spend a few days afterward thinking about how we’d grown up, and their difficulty in giving back even just a small measure of support. I get it, it’s how we were raised, and not everyone gives the same effort. I realized I’m much happier mentally if we just continue a text/occasional call relationship instead of meeting in person. Is that OK? It just stresses me out because I feel like I’m doing the work and getting judged for everything.
—Sibling Stress
Dear Sibling Stress,
The bottom line is, you should do what you need to enjoy your life and maintain these relationships. And if that means not seeing these people in person, so be it. But I think you might be moving a little bit recklessly here.
Family events are stressful. Division of labor at family events can be a mess. People are not always at their best. I don’t know if this quite rises to the level of “We should become estranged.” Now, absolutely, don’t plan any more celebrations if nobody else is meeting you halfway or being appreciative of your efforts. But can you think of some other ways to connect with your siblings that don’t involve work? Meeting for meals? Walks or hikes? Shopping? Bowling? Try seeing them in an environment where there are no tasks and there is no need to express appreciation. You might actually enjoy each other.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2022/12/boss-wrong-name-dear-prudence-advice.html
6. Dear Annie: Almost 15 years ago, my older sister removed me from her life after a series of messy arguments. At the time, she just stopped taking my calls and waited for me to leave family functions before going. She told our three siblings and mother that she didn't want me in her life. She likely gave them reasons but never allowed anyone to tell me.
When she ghosted me, I was heartbroken. I bugged everyone for years, asking how she was, crying about how much I missed her. I made many attempts to reconnect that were met with silence or warnings from family that she was still angry at me, but no one could ever say for what.
A few times, she asked our oldest sister to bring my kids for her to see them without me or my husband. My husband refused because he has never met her. I agreed with him.
Recently, I came to the conclusion that my sister removing me from her life was a blessing. She was toxic, and our relationship is a long history of cruelty on her part and a lack of boundaries mixed with codependency on mine. I told our oldest sister just that.
Mere days after that conversation with my oldest sister, my estranged sister messaged my teenage children on social media. She told them she was their aunt and that just because she and I don't get along doesn't mean she shouldn't have a relationship with them.
I responded by telling her she made the choice 15 years ago that we aren't family, that it was a blessing and she needs to leave my kids alone. Then I blocked her on their accounts.
She responded by sending my husband -- who she's never met or spoken to -- a message for me and then blocking him. Her argument was that I had played the victim for 15 years, that I was hateful and didn't support her. She said that I was using my kids as leverage. She called me toxic and stated that she was disappointed I didn't make any efforts to know her kids. She also stated repeatedly that I had been talking badly about her to everyone during the last 15 years.
I am very confused at this point. I don't know what she's been told for 15 years about what I've said because no one has told me anything. If I am toxic, why would she want me to have a relationship with her kids?
I believe I'm doing the right thing by keeping my teenagers away from her because I know how she treated me throughout our childhood and young adult years. She is not a safe person.
My siblings, their spouses and kids all seem to love her and have great relationships with her. It feels like most of the time, though, that if I don't reach out to them, I don't hear from them at all.
I'm now questioning if I should remove my three siblings from my life, too, as it sounds like they have been telling her I'm saying things. They've also been completely complacent in her alienation of me. -- Confused in Kansas
Dear Confused: You and your sister are, quite clearly, not on the same page. And how could you be, after you spent the last 15 years avoiding each other? You probably have completely different stories about how your relationship got to the place it's at now.
Your other siblings seem caught in the middle of a confusing situation, and it seems that nobody knows how to handle it. Rather than cutting them off, too, or using them to play a game of telephone, reach out to your estranged sister directly. Request an honest, frank conversation. Your sister certainly owes you that, especially if she wants to form relationships with your children.
It sounds like there is a lot of hurt on both sides, and hopefully, with the help of a good counselor, you and your estranged sister can move past the toxicity and arrive at a place of civility, for the sake of your children if nothing else.
https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2757710
This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
2. LW, nobody would blame you if you cut your mother off entirely. Yes, you're supposed to take care of your elders - but that's because they took care of you when you were a child. Except your mother didn't do that, did she? She has no right to demand things from you now, because she failed to fulfill the most basic obligation she had towards you when you were a child. And it doesn't seem like she understands and accepts that. Your responsibility begins and ends with "don't literally laugh as she starves on the streets", and it looks like you're doing that, so good job.
3. Annie, Frank and Bradley are ten years apart in age. How many happy childhood memories can they really share!?
And while I'm sympathetic to the fact that it was mental illness that caused that final outburst and, presumably, all the other things leading up to the estrangement, that doesn't mean that forgiveness is or should be guaranteed.
4. Also, I found out, to my adamant objection, that the little girl wears makeup, lipstick, nail polish and God only knows what else. I swear, the mother-in-law wants this 7-year-old pregnant as soon as possible. The mother-in-law seems to have money and basically pays all their bills. I never raised my daughter to be that way, so I can't figure it out.
Good news, LW! I think I've figured out why your daughter doesn't like you!
5. I have no idea what's going on here, but LW, if you think that the best solution for things is to go low contact with your siblings, you probably have reasons for thinking that. I suppose it depends on whether or not this incident was just the last straw or not.
6. I have no idea which one of these two is more in the wrong, but I really wish I knew more.
Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
(Come to think of it, I have two cousins, sisters to each other, with that same age gap who are also estranged from each other, and that gap has always been cited as part of the reason, though surely not the whole thing.)
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
is strictly a statement about the possibility of sharing childhood memories when children are distant in age, and that is what I was responding to.
It is, in fact, quite possible to share many childhood memories with a sibling distant to you in age. I was addressing the falsity of the broad assumption you made.
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
The age of the earliest childhood memory ranges from about 2-ish to somewhere around 7 or 8 - and most of those early childhood memories are disconnected from each other.
By the time the younger child is old enough to have substantial memories, even at the very youngest possible age, the older one is not a child but an adolescent or, at the oldest possible age, an adult.
No shared childhood memories. Shared memories, yes. Memories of childhood, yes. Shared childhood memories, no.
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
(frozen comment) Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
(frozen comment) Admin
Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
Exactly my reaction!! Yikes!
Re: This may actually be too many letters. So sorry.
Yeah, that line sent my brain to a screeching halt.
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And in that light the level of cluelessness IS really hilarious. I'm sure she really can't imagine why her daughter would not want her constant presence and input!
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STOP ASSUMING EVERY FAMILY RELATIONSHIP IS LIKE THIS.
I think it's better to assume the opposite until proven otherwise, actually.
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Apologies for not making the connection clearer.
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People can have mental illness and still be jerks.
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I feel I can't blame #5. Sometimes one just sees who people really are.
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