Why are people like this?

[conuly]

DEAR MISS MANNERS: I am a lawyer of some age, having had a license for more than 40 years. I often have to address written communications to female colleagues.

When I began practicing, it was observed that the title "Esq." was exclusively for male lawyers, no females having been squires. In letters, females were addressed as "Atty." Those who inquired were told that the female version of "Esq." was "Good Wife."

Now, my habit of referring to women as "Atty." has come under fire, notably when I upbraided a woman for listing herself with the honorific "Esq."

The dictionaries now state that it is a unisex term. I'm not so sure. What does Miss Manners think about using the term "Esq." after a woman lawyer's name?

GENTLE READER: That it is no sillier than using it after the names of male lawyers. You aren't squires, either -- hereditary country landowners or medieval attendants on knights.

Presumably, the custom of using this was adopted to assert that lawyers were gentlemen, as they were not always thought to be among those who rated gentlemanliness by birth. But it has always struck Miss Manners as odd in a country where we never thought an honest, working professional needed to proclaim "gentle" status.

Why you would want to provoke your colleagues by upbraiding them and suggesting the obsolete term "Good Wife" (which referred to a manager, such as a landlady), Miss Manners cannot imagine. If she were your lawyer, she would advise you to stop this right now, before you get into serious trouble.

https://www.uexpress.com/life/miss-manners/2022/06/13

Comments

[conuly]

Seriously, why.

[minoanmiss]

He told off another lawyer for using "Esq" because she's female. But of course sexism doesn't exist anymore and women have the same opportunities as men do in the workplace.

I cannot even imagine how much damage this troglodyte has done througout his career to the women around him (and the men too, at least some of whom likely had to painfully unlearn the lessons he taught them).

[dewline]

Those of us with sufficient sense and sensibility are trying to move past sexism, so this guy has some unlearning of his own to do.

And I need to get back to my own unlearning on other matters...

[minoanmiss]

We've all got bigoted stuff to unlearn -- it's the wise who realize this and the worthwhile who work on it. :)

[harpers_child]

Only mens can use silly name after real name. If womens do it, whole world fall apart! /sarcasm

Some part of me wants to know what kind of made up titles non-binary, genderfluid, and otherwise genderqueer people get to use in LW's world, but I don't think the dude in question even knows those options exist.

[azurelunatic]

"Upbraided."

LW here sounds great to work with. Just great.

[firecat]

A lawyer who thinks he knows better than dictionaries? What other reference works does he know better than, I wonder?

[jadelennox]

excellent observation; I was thinking someone much older.

Also, along with all the "upbraided" nonsense, I notice this paragraph is entirely written in the passive voice and yet he's clearly talking about himself:

When I began practicing, it was observed that the title "Esq." was exclusively for male lawyers, no females having been squires. In letters, females were addressed as "Atty." Those who inquired were told that the female version of "Esq." was "Good Wife."

Own up to it, LW. If you're so proud of telling your colleagues this, use the first person! Be bold!

[movingfinger]

If he has been practicing for "more than 40 years," he's a Baby Boomer, he knows better, and he's full of crap.

[beable]

Just gonna take a minute to observe that I had NO IDEA that the name of the tv show “The Good Wife” had any more layers than what I had originally assumed (Alicia’s transition back to active law practice after many years as a housewife)

[sathari]

Thank you for this comment. It made... well, my world a better place, at least.

[pauraque]

I never knew this either!

[lassarina]

Me either, but I am now so delighted.

[sathari]

Miss Manners rocked it. Dude needs to hush, and to understand that "Esquire" has been a courtesy title for attorneys regardless of gender for a damn long time. (Seriously, there is a VERY old-school joke about that in a "Law and Order" episode and also in an Olivia Goldsmith novel with a FEMALE attorney using Esq that came out at least two decades ago. Or does this dude try to argue case law from the 1600's or something?)

[ethelmay]

If he's been practicing for forty years, he's retirement age and should just leave already. Go fishing, Dude Lawyerman, Esq. No one will miss you.

[shirou]

Now, my habit of referring to women as "Atty." has come under fire, notably when I upbraided a woman for listing herself with the honorific "Esq."

LW, nobody upbraided you for your practice of using "Atty." Your habit has not come under fire, although perhaps it should. You have come under fire for trying to dictate the language of others, and for doing so in a manner that reeks of entitlement and sexism. Mind your own damn business.

[ioplokon]

this stuff is why I'm glad to be out of the legal industry. a lot of good people there but institutionally, just incredibly sexist & conservative (in addition to older lawyers pulling this stuff, a lot of judges have asinine courtroom rules and preferences - and of course standing up for yourself disadvantages the client, so you're stuck)

anyway, call people what they ask to be called. pretty much every lawyer has their preferred title in their email signature, on their business cards, and on the website...

[oursin]

the custom of using this was adopted to assert that lawyers were gentlemen, as they were not always thought to be among those who rated gentlemanliness by birth

Huh? It's some kind of newfangled new world problem that does not pertain in UK, where use of Esq did have (complex) class connotations but did not indicate any legal qualifications and is pretty much obsolete. (However under these rules as laid down in Debrett etc I very much doubt American lawyers would have counted as gentlemen.)

[jamoche]

The formatting is probably going to get lost on this:

And she went on planning to herself how she would manage it. `They must go by the carrier,' she thought; `and how funny it'll seem, sending presents to one's own feet! And how odd the directions will look!

ALICE'S RIGHT FOOT, ESQ.
HEARTHRUG,
NEAR THE FENDER,
(WITH ALICE'S LOVE).

[ethelmay]

Oooooooh, I had forgotten about that!

[jerusha]

So, I'm a lawyer. It's common practice to add "esquire" after your name when you practice in certain circles. When I first started practicing in that arena, I thought it made you a pretentious asshole. Now, I think it's just common practice, but I would NEVER put esquire after my name in any other arena. At most, I'd add J.D. (for juris doctor) if I thought a point needed to be made.

This guy? Pretentious asshole.