agonyaunt | (no subject)

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Dear Carolyn: Sometimes when my husband tickles our 3-year-old son, our son will laugh, but will also say, “Stop!” I told my husband when our child says to stop, he should stop, and that we need to honor our child’s bodily autonomy.

My husband got all bent out of shape and said to our child that he guesses they can no longer play that game. I told him they could as long as our son was okay with it, and that our son sets the rules regarding his body and when a game can start and stop. My spouse got upset and stormed off.

My father was physically abusive and still is emotionally abusive, and used to tickle my siblings and me so hard that the laughter turned into an inability to make sounds — tickle torture. I hated it and my boundaries were never respected.

I also fear having confusion about bodily autonomy in the home could lead to confusion regarding unwanted touches from others or eventually not respecting someone else’s boundaries.

My husband tends to be more receptive when someone else talks to him. Unfortunately, if a request, suggestion, or statement comes out of my mouth and is directed toward my spouse, no matter how it’s relayed, his insecurities are triggered and I’m the unreasonable one. Defensiveness is exhausting, and my spouse’s extends far beyond this issue. He is now acting as if we shouldn’t brush our son’s teeth because he doesn’t enjoy that, either. Not. The. Point. Advice?

— Not a Laughing Matter

Not a Laughing Matter: Oh my. This is counseling-level defensiveness.

His unwillingness to accept you as a messenger of anything he doesn’t want to hear is also a power problem, where he sees you as a threat to his.

You are utterly totally completely unimpeachably right about the tickling and its body autonomy implications. It is the right battle to pick, the right hill to die on.

I won’t defend your husband’s sensitivity — he’s behaving like a child, pouting and taking his ball and going home. But, it’s what he’s doing, and you want to be effective here, so you have to take it into account when you choose your words.

I suspect the 2 + 2 is that he feels accused of doing something inappropriate. You’re connecting him to “unwanted touches.” Distantly, of course, in a connect-the-dots kind of way. But that’s something you can be right about while still creating the appearance of insinuating something “wrong.”

You’re also applying an evolved standard that deviates from past norms, and that you adopted in part because of your own experience.

Make sure you hit on all those points with your husband:

“I know you’re just doing what everyone has always done. I’m not accusing you of intentional harm and I know it probably feels like I am. But I have experience with this that I may not have shared fully enough. My dad used to do this to us and I hated it. Hated. I hated being tickled and I hated it when I said no and he ignored it. I was laughing so it looked like ‘fun’ but it was torture. So all I’m asking is for you to listen to him when he says no. Does this make more sense now that I’ve spelled it out?”

If you make no progress and/or if he sticks to willfully obtuse false-equivalency BS about not brushing teeth, then talk to a therapist — you, solo. To start at least. To follow threads from abusive father to ultra-thin-skinned spouse. You are so right about protecting your child, so stay on it, and take care.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2022/03/14/carolyn-hax-father-wont-stop-tickling-defensive/

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Yeah, I can't see how someone could live with that from their partner as an ongoing situation.

This is something I'd put very high on the lists of Questions To Ask Yourself About The Person You're Considering Marrying -- do they respond well to requests/suggestions, or is their response routinely either overly prickly or overly fawning?

We have always had an "accept the no" here about tickling and joining in games and even family Zoom calls. Go OP.

We did not adequately explain the boundaries, here, to our children who like to game the system. Of late I have been having to remind teenagers that "accept the no" does not apply to homework or chores, and that privileges can and will be revoked.

Edited (typo) 2022-03-15 11:05 (UTC)

AH, children. FWIW your roommate generally approves of your explanations -- it is developmentally appropriate (ahahhahaha) as well as very personally on brand (snerk) for them to try to game the system. (This is me trying very hard not to snicker aloud)

Not so much for a grown man. This husband is deliberately misunnderstanding consent in a way that makes me want to advise LW to grab her child and head for the hllls. I kind of wish I'd ever finished that Whole Man Disposal Services icon, but I know other habitues here have one.

Edited 2022-03-15 14:03 (UTC)

We have always had an "accept the no" here about tickling and joining in games and even family Zoom calls. Go OP.

My sister once walked in on me explaining safewords (not using that actual word!) to her small child because apparently "no tickling" sometimes means "no tickling" and other times means "I like saying this while you tickle me", which, okay great, but let's agree that "stop" means "for real".

I suspect the 2 + 2 is that he feels accused of doing something inappropriate.

That's because continuing to tickle a little who told you to stop is in fact inappropriate. It's not sex-offender registration inappropriate, but it is inappropriate.

So you stop and you take the little's cues about whether to start again. They say stop, you say stop, they say no I didn't mean it, you say okay and keep tickling, repeat ad nauseam.

(My mom and I did tickle torture, too--which I remember fondly because it was a sneaking-game where sometimes she surprise-tickled me until I couldn't breathe and sometimes I surprise-tickled her until she couldn't breathe and in addition to that she was savvy enough to read the edge of the change from fun to distress and stop.)

there are a lot of times I can be pragmatic or empathetic. but this is absolutely "beep beep whole man removal" territory for me. This is just, so many red flags.

Yup.

Even beyond the question of children's physical autonomy - I always give kids the option when parents say "go hug/kiss Aunty T" - I feel like the last paragraph is betraying a lot more about the relationship between wife and husband than just "he won't listen to or respect me (or our child) about our child's boundaries".

Notice how both the question and the answer are now talking about how the guy feels? Yeah, that's the purpose of that whole "Well, I GUESS I'm an evil MURDERER now. I GUESS I'm not even allowed to PULL my child out of the PATH of a SPEEDING TRAIN now."

Wife already knows husband won't listen to her and any request that he change his behavior will result in either no change or doubling down. Solo counseling is the minimum of the support she needs.

(Yes, I was tickled to tears against my will as a child. Yes, I'm 57 years old and still not fully unfucked from it.)

I'm too tired to go into details, but I want to tell you that this whole comment hit me hard. I was going to say resonated, but, well.

When I first read this over on WaPo, the first thing I did was breathing exercises to calm down.

My father was fond of tickle-torturing me as a child. He and I are most-estranged now. I contact cut some years ago, but after a few years agreed to let him see my kids at my brother's home. During that visit, he tickled my older kid, and refused to stop until I made him, pointing out almost exactly what the LW does here -- it's Kid's body, Kid said no, etc.

At which point my father laughed and said "Sometimes people say no when they mean yes".

FOR SOME REASON he was allll surprised and shocked when I cut contact again.

GEE I WONDER WHY

...it's true that Sometimes people say no when they mean yes but the correct answer is NOT "therefore I will assume all no's are yeses" Treating all no's as no's might lead to disappointment if it's a "I say no but mean yes" no, but that is infinitely better than treating a hard no like a really-yes. /preaching to the choir

I'm sorry your father is like that. argh.

At which point my father laughed and said "Sometimes people say no when they mean yes".

😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

Good for you for cutting contact.

I realize that this is one of the least important points, here (that is tied to the most important) but laughing in response to being tickled is pretty much an automatic reflex, and is in no way a trustworthy indicator of the tickle-ee's actual response.

Also to note, this is worth discussing re: verbal teasing as well. People can have a deeply ingrained habit of smiling in response to being teased even when they hate it. I actually have a teasing safe word with spouse because older brother deeply fucked up my visible responses.

In the dungeons where I have gone, tickling scenes are automatically considered edge play, and worth supervision by a dungeon monitor and possibly a non-verbal safety signal/indicator (like holding onto a jingle-ball).

1. This is good and worthy information.

2. My brain automatically tried to fit this into D&D, and didn't get to, "Ohhhh!" until "dungeon monitor." Which...is kind of weird, when you think about it.

3. Now my brain is showing me a goblin sitting at a Batcave-style multi-screen monitoring station, and can't decide if said goblin is working intently or is clicking through tvtropes while munching popcorn.

4. Oh, fuck I invoked tvtropes.

*falls off bed giggling*

A former friend used to talk about tickling his girlfriend until she went completely nonverbal. He thought it was hilarious.

I did not. (Neither, it turned out, did she.)

I also know he was active in the local scene, and that she wasn't. Hm. HMM.

Several people on WaPo commented that their tickle torture stopped when they kicked their torturer—oops, “involuntary reflex.” Every single torturer fully deserved it, and I hope LW saw it as a possible solution. (My grandfather used to do this to my sister and it was awful.)

The last time my older brother snuck up behind me and tickled me, it took him nearly an hour to recover from the elbow that hit his throat.

GOOD.

All hail the elbow!

There was an adult at my parents' church who tickled the children despite NOs -

and while I don't think it was sexual - it was happening in the grassy carpark right next to the church in full view of everyone including the other adults, multiple children at once, only armpits touched -

it still felt extremely boundary transgressing and not okay and I am angry about it to this day

if someone tries to tickle me as an adult, they may well get punched on automatic reflex, that's how much getting nonconsensually tickled as a child upset me

My husband tends to be more receptive when someone else talks to him. Unfortunately, if a request, suggestion, or statement comes out of my mouth and is directed toward my spouse, no matter how it’s relayed, his insecurities are triggered and I’m the unreasonable one.

oh MY GOD. I can picture my parents with this bit. Just reading this already leaves me feeling exhausted.

I hope LW dumps him. LW can be reasonable and well spoken and reassuring and and and, but it won't matter at all if he's not willing to do it out of pride plus pettiness, as he seems to be doing.

One thing I've always noticed is that abusers/boundary-pushy people like the husband here never listen to their spouse or children's suggestions, instead digging their (metaphorical) heels in and refusing to budge, no matter if it's a reasonable thing. However, and at the same time, they fall all over themselves to please or do favors for strangers or acquaintances; they'll do whatever these other people suggest to them or adopt their beliefs as if they were sheeple. It makes absolutely no sense, but it's so consistent that now when someone desperately wants to do me any kind of favors I'm automatically on guard.

(…) talk to a therapist — you, solo. To start at least. To follow threads from abusive father to ultra-thin-skinned spouse.

YES TO THIS. I wouldn't be surprised if LW's past and relationship with her father unconsciously shaped her choice of partner.

It makes absolutely no sense

They like it when people do things for them, and they want you to like them, so they do things for you.

This also, not coincidentally, creates a feeling of obligation slanted in their direction.

Once you like them AND feel like you owe them, then they can act differently.

Edited 2022-03-18 22:31 (UTC)

Maybe. With some of them, that's very likely the reason, a "bait", so to speak.

But with others, I feel like it's also an insecurity issue? As if they were constantly trying to get people to their side.

And also a power play on top of it - they consider their family as inferior so they're not going to listen to them, but strangers or acquaintances are on equal if not higher ground so they don't have anything against them.

However, and at the same time, they fall all over themselves to please or do favors for strangers or acquaintances

Well fuck, that's another quality I didn't notice about my dad until today.

And that makes it all the more frustrating, doesn't it? Because it's proof they could treat you respectfully but choose not to instead; and because then others believe they're awesome people but you know better, maybe even feel like you wouldn't be believed if you told them.

It's the worst

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