agonyaunt | (no subject)

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DEAR HARRIETTE: I’m a touring musician and always on the go, so it’s hard to maintain a healthy relationship. Recently, I’ve been spending time with someone I really like. We have great talks. I enjoy her company, and I never get tired of her. The only issue is that she’s not as physically attractive as the women I normally go for. That’s a big deal for me because I make a lot of public appearances, and I don’t think she would fit in. Should I tell her how I feel? If so, how do I do it without hurting her feelings? -- I’m Into Her

DEAR I’M INTO HER: Do NOT tell her this. I understand what you are saying, but I am here to tell you something that you already know deep down inside: Superficial things do not last. How your girlfriend looks matters a lot less than who she is and the quality of your relationship.

What you can address is how she presents herself publicly. Since you are constantly getting your picture taken, perhaps she needs to dress a certain way to be photo-ready. Share the standards around presentation. Dress codes are normal in life. Just do not talk about her actual looks.

You must come to terms with this because otherwise she will feel the disapproval or shame or whatever it is that you are feeling about her physical self. You have to deal with your feelings and attitude. Yes, she looks different, but you care about her for who she is, not how she looks. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be with her.

https://www.uexpress.com/life/sense-and-sensitivity/2022/02/10

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First of all, I think this dude should definitely tell her how she feels so she can see what sort of person she's really dating and make new life decisions based on this information. The fact that he's even asking this...!

But secondly, if we're decided that he shouldn't tell her then why, why, why Harriette do you go off on this ridiculous tangent about how she dresses? Ridiculous, and equally inappropriate, with, btw, no evidence that it's a "problem" at all.

If this is a grown woman, I think she can figure out how to dress like the other people in a room without being corrected by her asshole boyfriend.

Agreed on the clothing part – there is nothing here to suggest that LW has any issue with the way she dresses!

That said, I don't think LW should tell her how he* feels about her looks – that's something that could create insecurities that stick around for her forever. If it's a deal-breaker for him, he should break up with her without telling her it's because of her looks; if he wants to keep dating her, he needs to never breathe a word about this B.S. "concern" for how she looks during his public appearances. (Somehow, I doubt it's really about the public appearances....)

I think LW ought to break up with her for his own good as well as for hers: From how he talks about the difficulty of maintaining a healthy relationship as a touring musician, it sounds like one of the big reasons he's staying with her is fear that he won't be able to find someone else, but he's not really happy in this relationship.

*Making an assumption here.

that's something that could create insecurities that stick around for her forever.

Word. This shallow flake of a musician doesn't deserve to get to leave lasting scars on someone.

Edited 2022-03-09 02:41 (UTC)

Leave it to Harriette to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I just...

Just...she was headed in the right direction! Say nothing unless you're shallow enough that this matters (said in the usual Harriette let's understaaaaaaaaaand tone). And then boom! Idiocy off the port bow.

I'm reminded of the first time I saw a photo of Evy Colbert (from the Met Gala) and wondered if she ever felt dowdy around the people Stephen hobnobs with. Then I got to see her in action regularly because she was included in the quarantine version of the Late Show. Photos don't do her justice and Stephen is clearly not as shallow as this guy!

Okay, I'm going to go sideways to everybody else here. Possibly I've read too much of the wrong sort of fanfic, IDK! But I don't really get the impression that LW finds her unattractive or even has personal issues with her attractiveness. The "should I tell her how I feel" in this context reads to me as "Should I tell her I find her attractive and want to date her even though I think my friends would be cruel to her" rather than "Should I tell the woman I'm already dating that she's not attractive enough for me."

If it really is "should I tell her I find her attractive and want to date her even though I think my friends would be cruel to her" you absolutely should talk that over with her. Not as "you're not attractive enough for me" but as "because of my job I have to spend a lot of time with people who are super shallow and you'd probably get thrown in a lot with WAGs and scenesters who will be cruel to you because you don't match their body standards". That is something you should probably work out before you start dating, she may not want to be 'Rock Star's ugly girlfriend'. Or maybe she's been dreaming about being Rock Star's Ugly Girlfriend her whole life and wants to go for it!

You need to work through whether *you're* ready to stand up to people being cruel about her first too, though.

If this really is someone you're comfortable having a lot of long talks with, it seems like this is something you should be able to talk about with her now. Not necessarily in a high-stakes 'we need to solve this before we date' way, but you can bring up 'It bothers that the people in my profession judge women so much on their looks that someone like you would be uncomfortable at the events I go to, and I don't know what to do about it' and then let it be a two-way conversation. If you can get through that conversation, you will probably both know the answer about whether you want to try dating by the end of it.

Also, I bet you there are already women in the scene who aren't 'as attractive as the women you usually go for'. Try making friends with some of them, and having the same discussion with them.

(I'm assuming 'not as physically attractive as I usually go for' here is code for 'fat' because like, 90% of the time it is, if she's fat she knows she's fat, and fatphobia is something she's got strategies for already. If the actual issue is like, 'doesn't wear makeup', LW needs to learn about the difference between 'attractive' and 'wearing makeup', and then maybe Harriet's advice isn't completely bad.)

Edited 2022-03-08 16:49 (UTC)

There's nothing there about friends being cruel to this inadequate woman if LW dates her, only LW's own frank assessment of her failure as arm candy. LW says she is not physically attractive, compared to the usual arm candy candidates, and LW is concerned about their own image if they show up with this dowd.

There is also an unaddressed assumption that this woman has no life or occupations of her own already and would be available to be arm candy for the LW on tours, which seems pretty unlikely if we are talking about adults.

Under no circumstances is this proto-relationship going to go good places if LW's feelings are going to make her feel terrible because LW's confession would be, essentially, a giant Darcyesque neg. "You are below my standards in so many ways, yet I find myself drawn to you against my will!"

He says "I don't think she would fit in". That could mean he's worried about his image, but it probably means, you know, he's worried she won't fit in. "People will be mean about you" or even just "people will comment that you're not like my other girlfriends were" is a thing that would reflect back on both of them, and it's definitely worth them talking it out, and something he shouldn't ignore, and isn't just him being shallow.

If he's a professional touring performer, his public image is actually something he needs to consciously cultivate and that can't be a solely private matter. If his previous image was "only dates hot floozies" then shifting it to "madly committed to dowdy bluestocking" will involve more than just him changing his private opinions. That doesn't mean he shouldn't try! But yes, he should talk to her about what might happen.

Talking about it will involve things like "expectations for gf to be involved in publicity" and negotiating about that, which will probably go different than with his previous gfs.

Like if he does it Darcy style she will probably throw it in his face and good for her, but that was in fact something they needed to clear the air on in the book too.

Yes and also if LW is sufficiently famous, the gf will possibly be routinely mocked by the press & on social media. I know someone who dated a minor celebrity & it was brutal. People get like next-level mad if you're not 'hot' enough to be dating their celeb crush.

And these days it doesn't take much, even if it's just "mildly well-known in extremely small genre circles" or "plays backing to small bands who open for medium-sized bands" that's still enough for her to get savaged on social media or in the specialty press.

Yeah I think LW is also concerned w/ status in a way that's shallow & messed up (and internalized the norms of his hyperconformist friend group as objective measures of attractiveness), but I read this as more, how do I broach this before taking the next step vs I want to break up/use this as an excuse to never invite her anywhere.

The focus on public appearances initially made think the letter was about press and social media, but the wording is ambiguous. I was surprised the letter ended with "Should I tell her how I feel?" instead of "Should I tell her what treatment to expect if/when she starts appearing with me in public?"

To give the columnist a little credit, I would want (professional) assistance getting camera-ready if I were to start making a bunch of public appearances. That's totally normal for people with those careers and lifestyles.

Yeah. I interpreted it as feeling apprehension about the situation (her not fitting in), but that's definitely me reading into it based on my friend's situation.

While reading a book review I found a quotation which reminded me of this discussion: " “No girl knows she’s ugly until someone tells her so,and every ugly girl remembers the someone who first told her.” I remember too, and I just can't help but cringe at the idea of the LW being that person for this unfortunate young woman in his orbit.

HOO. BOY.

The way this letter is written or excerpted is quite a fill-in-the-blank exercise. Is LW worried that:
(a) people will look down on him because his girlfriend is not as attractive as his other girlfriends;
(b) his friends will be cruel to him and his girlfriend;
(c) he feels unsatisfied with his girlfriend's looks;
(d) fans and internet randos will be cruel to his girlfriend;
(e) other?

If (a)|(b)|(c), his girlfriend deserves to date someone better, but if (d), talking to the girlfriend about how the public appearances typically go and helping her with PR and photo-ready strategies makes sense.

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