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Carolyn Hax: Friend who tells homophobic jokes has a son who might be gay
Hello, Carolyn: I’m a married man with three wonderful kids and a wonderful wife. My great friend and business partner is a married man with two wonderful kids and a wonderful wife. He’s a fairly religious (but silent about it) kind of guy.
Over the years, my friend has gently acknowledged that some of my gay relatives are not eligible for an entry ticket to heaven. He's not the least bit mean-spirited about it. More like a sad acknowledgment we should “pray for them.” I'm not religious so his theological musing hasn't bothered me — although it's jarring coming from such an otherwise kind and open person.
It's becoming abundantly clear this same friend's oldest son, as he passes through puberty, is gay. My friend seems oblivious — and I believe he sincerely is. To everyone else, the child's trajectory is fairly clear (although we could certainly all be mistaken).
Normally, I would stay out of this entirely. It's not my business. But in my presence and the presence of his son — and wife and grandparents — my friend often will make gay jokes. For example, an older male friend and I often travel together. It's purely platonic but when I return, the gay jokes come out — causing the family to titter. He uses “gay” as a common jab at many of our friends.
This in itself would not concern me — our circle of friends often makes irreverent jokes, although not in front of children. In this case, however, it is made in the presence of a child who is very, very likely facing the discovery of things about himself that his father might not be comfortable with — yet I can’t say, “Don’t be joking like that in front of your gay son.”
I do think his father will ultimately accept his son, regardless of his sexual orientation. However, it’s the potential damage being done to the child in the here-and-now that concerns me. I wonder if perhaps in this case, I should not mind my own business.
— Wondering
Wondering: Yuk yuk yuk, the irreverent, “That’s so gay!” joke.
Just, no.
And you ran right into why that's a hard no, but you're trying to call it something else.
It's not because a-whoopsie-do!, one of the jokers might have a gay son! It's because calling someone “gay” as an irreverent joke is not irreverent and it's not a joke. It's a relic from the Before Times when people worked so so hard to make excuses for why hate speech somehow wasn't hate speech instead of just changing their speech.
What you've been doing is gross. If you believe people are equally entitled to dignity, then you won't use demographics as slurs. That applies to “gay,” obviously, but also “like a girl,” or “dumb [ethnicity]," or “fat [whatever]” or the many many more. And if anyone complains about being thought-policed or similar, allow me to counter-complain about the limited imagination and facility with the utterly massive English language one must have to need these “jokes” in their lives. I came from that era and culture, too, and I got over it. So can you.
That is precisely where, why and how you “butt in” on decency’s behalf, not just a maybe-or-maybe-not-gay kid’s: “Hey. Stop. ‘Gay’ is for real human beings, not fossilized jokes.” Or, to use your words, “Don’t be joking like that.” Period. Without your " … in front of your gay son” qualifier, since what you’re really saying is, " … because one of ‘us’ might be one of ‘them,’" which morally isn’t worth spit. It’s right or it isn’t.
Let your “wonderful” families hear you say no to these slurs, too, including those children you're all somehow not joking in front of but also joking in front of.
By the way — for a guy who is so insistent about distancing himself from homosexuality? Your friend sure seems to think about it. A lot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2022/01/02/carolyn-hax-homophobic-friend-possibly-gay-son/
Over the years, my friend has gently acknowledged that some of my gay relatives are not eligible for an entry ticket to heaven. He's not the least bit mean-spirited about it. More like a sad acknowledgment we should “pray for them.” I'm not religious so his theological musing hasn't bothered me — although it's jarring coming from such an otherwise kind and open person.
It's becoming abundantly clear this same friend's oldest son, as he passes through puberty, is gay. My friend seems oblivious — and I believe he sincerely is. To everyone else, the child's trajectory is fairly clear (although we could certainly all be mistaken).
Normally, I would stay out of this entirely. It's not my business. But in my presence and the presence of his son — and wife and grandparents — my friend often will make gay jokes. For example, an older male friend and I often travel together. It's purely platonic but when I return, the gay jokes come out — causing the family to titter. He uses “gay” as a common jab at many of our friends.
This in itself would not concern me — our circle of friends often makes irreverent jokes, although not in front of children. In this case, however, it is made in the presence of a child who is very, very likely facing the discovery of things about himself that his father might not be comfortable with — yet I can’t say, “Don’t be joking like that in front of your gay son.”
I do think his father will ultimately accept his son, regardless of his sexual orientation. However, it’s the potential damage being done to the child in the here-and-now that concerns me. I wonder if perhaps in this case, I should not mind my own business.
— Wondering
Wondering: Yuk yuk yuk, the irreverent, “That’s so gay!” joke.
Just, no.
And you ran right into why that's a hard no, but you're trying to call it something else.
It's not because a-whoopsie-do!, one of the jokers might have a gay son! It's because calling someone “gay” as an irreverent joke is not irreverent and it's not a joke. It's a relic from the Before Times when people worked so so hard to make excuses for why hate speech somehow wasn't hate speech instead of just changing their speech.
What you've been doing is gross. If you believe people are equally entitled to dignity, then you won't use demographics as slurs. That applies to “gay,” obviously, but also “like a girl,” or “dumb [ethnicity]," or “fat [whatever]” or the many many more. And if anyone complains about being thought-policed or similar, allow me to counter-complain about the limited imagination and facility with the utterly massive English language one must have to need these “jokes” in their lives. I came from that era and culture, too, and I got over it. So can you.
That is precisely where, why and how you “butt in” on decency’s behalf, not just a maybe-or-maybe-not-gay kid’s: “Hey. Stop. ‘Gay’ is for real human beings, not fossilized jokes.” Or, to use your words, “Don’t be joking like that.” Period. Without your " … in front of your gay son” qualifier, since what you’re really saying is, " … because one of ‘us’ might be one of ‘them,’" which morally isn’t worth spit. It’s right or it isn’t.
Let your “wonderful” families hear you say no to these slurs, too, including those children you're all somehow not joking in front of but also joking in front of.
By the way — for a guy who is so insistent about distancing himself from homosexuality? Your friend sure seems to think about it. A lot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2022/01/02/carolyn-hax-homophobic-friend-possibly-gay-son/
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ahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahhahahahah *wheeze* *sigh* *sob*
I do wish the advice had included slipping the kid some info to connect with other queer people, or would that be a bad idea?
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For this kid, slipping him a card for The Trevor Project and maybe info for a local high school age LGBTQ support group is probably the most that could be done without looking Weird if it came to light.
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Are you the person who posted to Tumblr about taking in the kid when their longtime slash-loving friend going back to the mailing list days went absolutely ballistic over her kid coming out?^1 Or was that different person in the "unfortunately, this still happens" scenario?
"Unfortunately that information is classified" is an acceptable answer
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I wanted very badly to take her in, but kidnapping is illegal and I didn't have room or budget. I eventually convinced her to tell a mandated reporter what was going on at home, and as she had predicted this resulted in a Situation that led to her enabler dad signing her over to a shelter for at-risk youth for what was supposed to be a month and ended up being the whole summer. She only went back to her parents' house because it was senior year and she was doing well in her high school but that was too far to commute from the shelter. Wound up being able to apply for financial aid as an independent student, got a full scholarship and then good tech jobs, lives about an hour north of me and visits for holidays.
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Good gravy. That is horrifying and I'm really glad she got out okay and sometimes I really hate that kidnapping is illegal
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That verb bothers me. It actually bothers me quite a bit. Somebody who disagreed with his friend would use a different verb.
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THATS THE EXACT REASON IT SHOULD BOTHER YOU.
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He's not mean spirited so it came up.. how? If you're not at all religious and he's that kind of Christian than he doesn't think you're going to heaven either, so why did he mention your relatives? Also how is it not mean spirited to say, "Hey, Bobby, I believe in an eternal lake of fire, and Satan's going to be flaying your Cousin Jordy there until the universe winds down"? Mean-spirited to you, I mean. Jordy's not there to be Saved™, so what benefit is there to telling you that he thinks your beloved Great Aunt Sally's being tortured for eternity?
Ah, so his family sucks, too.
What is he, twelve? At least have the courage of your convictions and use the F-word.
Ah, so your friends suck, too. Except for whoever is the inevitable closeted person in that circle of friends, who needs an intervention.
If the kid actually is queer, he knows. And he knows his dad is a homophobe.
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...
But in my presence and the presence of his son — and wife and grandparents — my friend often will make gay jokes. For example, an older male friend and I often travel together. It's purely platonic but when I return, the gay jokes come out — causing the family to titter. He uses “gay” as a common jab at many of our friends."
Super not-mean-spirited, sure. Sure.
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As usual, everything after the but disproves everything before the but.
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TIL that every form of 'love the sinner, hate the sin' leaves me boiling with rage.
You call it 'praying for them,' I call it 'deliberately and maliciously cursing people I care about (including me) to never fall in love or build a household with a romantic partner for your own self, asshole. Your prayers are the goddamn evil eye. (At LW's friend and his ill, obviously, not anyone here.)
And as always I want to steal the kid away and keep him safe from his shitty family forever.
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minoanmiss adding "prayer as curse," to our ongoing theological discussion which is now as old as your average fifth grader
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THAT IS NOT OKAY OR EVEN IN THE SAME CLADE AS OKAY