agonyaunt | (no subject)

(no subject)

Dear Annie: My daughter, "Connie," left home when she was at 17 to join the army. I was going through a separation, and then divorce, from her father. Before leaving, she was very unruly and hard to handle. So her father and I decided to sign her up for the army since she was underage. I still had a 16-year-old son at home to raise as well.

This is the issue: Because of what I was dealing with (separation/divorce), I told her that, due to her behavior, signing her up for the military was all felt I could do. I also mentioned to her that her behavior was the cause of my marriage falling apart. Her father was having an affair and didn't want her around.

Now, she has returned home with her husband and two beautiful teens. She has been verbally abusive to both kids, telling them at times she will kick them out if they misbehave. I know this stems from what I did to her. Nevertheless, I have apologized for sending her off to the military and accusing her of tearing my marriage apart, but I couldn't handle her or the marital upheaval I was going through at that time.

One other thing is that she no longer wants to be called Connie (her middle name), but since her time in the army, she uses and wants to be called by her first name. I have not agreed to the name change and still call her Connie. She is now in her late 30s. -- Regretful

Dear Regretful: It's time to let yourself off the hook. Beating yourself up over the decisions you made more than 15 years ago does not do anyone any good. It also keeps everyone focused on the past rather than the present. Have a heart-to-heart with your daughter and share with her what you were going through at the time. Do this, not to make excuses for your words and behavior, but to tell her that if you had known better at the time, then you would have done better. Now, you are here to share that wisdom with her.

The only way we learn not to repeat the same patterns as our parents is to be aware of them. By sharing your growth and regrets, she might begin to see how to change her own behavior. As a sign of moving forward and creating a new relationship with her, consider calling your daughter by whatever name she prefers. Using her name of choice is a sign of respect. Model the behavior you'd like to see from your daughter and your grandchildren.

https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2388562

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There has got to be more to this story, and Annie should not have let this awful person off the hook so easily. I guarantee that the mistreatment of "Connie" didn't start with this messy divorce. And I notice that LW's apology is conditional - I'm sorry it happened, but I just couldn't deal with you! is not an apology.

I don't know if this woman is now abusive to LW's grandkids, as LW asserts, but I really hope she can break free of her entire toxic family, because it's not getting better.

It is INCREDIBLY DISRESPECTFUL not to use someone's chosen name (particularly since it's the name you gave her, lady -- I don't know why you started calling her by her middle name, but it's particularly rich that you're objecting to HER LEGAL FIRST NAME THAT YOU GAVE HER AT BIRTH.)

*facepalms forever*

The LW sounds atrocious, and Annie let her off far too lightly.

LW sounds like a horrible person all around. Sending your goddamn underage kid to the army, accusing them of ruining your marriage, AND not calling them by their chosen name, WHICH YOU GAVE THEM? What in the fuck.

(I also have to wonder if "Connie" is actually verbally abusive to the kids, or if LW is just making shit up, because a lot of classic narcissist types love to make up fake abuse accusations when the target of their abuse is behaving "out of line" somehow. EDIT: I'm not saying that abuse never happens, but I'm saying I've observed narcissists claiming their abuse target is doing X Y and Z and asking for advice on how to "deal with them" when said person isn't doing those things, so they can get sympathy.)

Annie really was too kind to this person.

Edited 2020-07-30 08:40 (UTC)

Your parenthetical is my question too - and notice the outsized importance, if "Connie" really is being verbally abusive, that LW puts on that single incident. She's not being verbally abusive because that's all she experienced as a child, she's doing it because this one time, when her mother was really stressed, her mother did one bad thing that was wrong but justifiable.

^This. (I'm also really glad it's not just me who has this question. Well, not "glad", since what "Connie" has been through sounds pretty awful, but you know.)

Holy SHIT, there's not enough yikes in the world. I can't believe anybody could be clueless enough to respond like that to this letter, which is obviously lying but is still unwittingly revealing so much awfulness that the daughter should never accept a heart-to-heart or advice from her.

Dear LW:

You can't change the past, and you can't change someone else's behavior. But you can take charge of your future, and of your share of your relationship with your daughter, her husband, and their children.

Begin by calling your daughter by the name she wants you to use. Since it sounds like you struggle with knowing what's appropriate behavior in family relationships, a standard you can set for yourself is to treat her at least as respectfully and politely as you would a colleague at work, or a member of your social or religious community. She's an independent adult, and you need to see her as one. Your actions affect her, but she's not an extension of you or a reflection of you.

Work with a therapist on understanding what healthy relationships look like and how to have them. Don't ask your daughter to attend therapy with you. This is for you alone, especially as I suspect you might have some baggage hanging around from your own childhood that you need to unpack.

If you have a religious faith, explore that faith's teachings on repentance—not forgiveness, which is up to your daughter and may never happen, but your own work of making amends and trying to repair the harm you've done. Your religious leader can help to guide you. There are many secular works of philosophy on this topic as well, and of course you can read outside your personal religious tradition; ask your local librarian for pointers. When I've done wrong and need to do better, it helps me to remember that untold billions of people, over thousands of years, have faced a similar struggle and found ways to get a handle on it.

When you're ready, you might send your daughter one detailed, heartfelt letter of apology—no excuses—for how you treated her in her teen years, and how you've likely treated her since (I'm guessing that refusing to use her chosen name isn't the only way you've been disrespectful or unkind). Commit to treating her better in the future, and be clear about what that entails. How she handles that letter is up to her; don't follow it with a second one, and don't ask her for a response.

And—only if and when your therapist agrees that this is appropriate—consider offering your grandchildren a safe haven in your home if their parents' home ever becomes unsafe for them. But that will be a dangerous course as long as you're grappling with how to be a good parent to your adult daughter, so take the time to fix yourself first. In the meantime, be a kind but perhaps slightly distant parent and grandparent. A little distance is not a bad thing while you're learning how to safely get closer.

This will be hard work, but if you undertake it with the will to genuinely improve yourself, I trust that you can do it. Good luck.

P.S. to Annie: what is wrong with you

You should be paid whatever Annie was for her lack of answer. Plus a bonus for actually answering.

+1000

Still boggling at:
I also mentioned to her that her behavior was the cause of my marriage falling apart. Her father was having an affair and didn't want her around

The marriage falling apart seems to be down to the affair and the father's behaviour (to the extent that the LW can be trusted, and anyone who comes out with a line that illogical hasn't really earned any trust) and that seems a perfectly plausible explanation for the daughter acting out, too. How can the Agony Aunt not even address this point at all?

Yeah, I tripped over that one right away. Your husband is having an affair, but you tell your teenaged daughter that the divorce is her fault?

LW sounds completely deluded—in what she told daughter, in what she wrote to Annie, and in what she tells herself. She needed a serious call-out, not a namby-pamby, “it was a long time ago.” She’s still not really facing the truth.

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps the husband would have been perfectly happy in his affair if the daughter was gone? Well, they got rid of the daughter, so how did THAT work out?

And I love the way she tosses off "I MENTIONED to her"--I'll just bet she did. And this woman is accusing her *daughter* of being verbally abusive?

Long post redacted to: once again, Annie shows that there is no parental behavior, including psychological abuse and fucking conscripting a minor into a situation that could have gotten them killed, that she will not excuse. Annie is beyond bad advice. She's actively dangerous.

Reddit says she’s the asshole https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/i05co4/aita_for_not_calling_my_daughter_by_her_first_name/

Wow, that's a whole lot of unanimity on the judgement there, and rightly so. And also quite a lot of folks wondering just how the heck one is legally allowed to enlist an underage kid in the armed forces. Color me in the same boat.

All branches take 17-year-olds, but none should take anyone that isn't willing to be there. My guess is that unless this story is pure bullshit, LW bullied or threatened her daughter into enlisting. Even one corrupt recruiting officer shouldn't be enough to enlist someone who doesn't want to be enlisted.

I'm calling bullshit on that one, too -- it really doesn't work that way. My own suspicion is that the daughter saw enlistment as the only way out of a toxic home situation (and as an escape hatch, it does beat alternatives like drug use, teen pregnancy, or life on the streets) and the horrible parents convinced themselves after the fact that the consent to underage enlistment was their idea in the first place.

And if she came home with two teenagers, she may well have done a full twenty-year hitch. I'm reminded of a career-enlisted sailor my husband worked with during his time in the service, who said, "I didn't have a family until the Navy issued me one."

The alternative is that the parents said "This is what we're doing" and she was sufficiently beaten down that she didn't argue. When you say "I'm here of my own free will and nobody is forcing or coercing me", even if that's a lie, people tend to believe it.

If the alternative to enlistment was becoming essentially a thrown-away kid, it could work that way, too.

It does sound like once she was in, she found it a more congenial place that the one she'd left. (Regular pay, three hots and a cot guaranteed, clearly defined expectations, and tangible appreciation in the form of promotion and public recognition for things done well . . . for a lot of people, the military is the first place they get any of those things.)

And I bet they called her by her name.

Oh, yeah. When my husband was in the Navy, invites to official functions came addressed to Lieutenant HisNames and My Own Name (because when I explained to the person making the official ID card that I'd kept my own name when I got married, they said, "Oh, okay," and that was it), until somebody in admin found out that I had a Ph.D., at which point the invites started coming to Lieutenant HisName and Dr. MyOwnName.

I don't normally use "Dr." outside of work, but it amuses me a bit that the two times spouse and I have received wedding invitations to "Dr. Lucy MyName and Mr. Spouse's Name" have been to the weddings of two of the most conservative men I know. My Marine brother is my only sibling who reliably addresses things to my last name (although that's more of a "Our Family" thing), and my spouse's retired Navy aunt consistently sends things to the "MyName/Spouse'sName Family." Just goes to show.

In fact, the custom of the country at Penn, where I got my degree, was Firstname Lastname, Ph.D. -- "Dr." was for dentists or something like that. But I wasn't going to argue with the Navy when they were being so obliging as to recognize the degree.

I'm not going to lie: I still get a little thrill when I hear "Dr. LastName," and it's been almost 20 years since I defended my dissertation. But I know it's considered tacky for anyone other than medical professionals and maybe reverends to use "Dr." socially. What's ironic about that is that the medicals stole it from the teachers.

Tacky shmacky, you worked for those degrees. *cheers you on*

Gotcha. And yeah, I kind of assumed that, legality question aside, the kid was forced into enlisting by the parents using some kind of blackmail/threats/bullying, or by just saying "this is how it's gonna be" and the kid not having the nerve to tell them to fuck right the fuck off (and probably not having any good options other than running away). I mean, it's clear that's how the LW is operating these days, and it only sounds like it was worse back then.

The legal age for enlistment is 17 with parental consent. Without consent, it's 18. (This is from memory, so I could have details wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.)

Also, I don't think parents can sign their kids up for the military if the kid doesn't want to join, although the way the LW puts it, it certainly sounds like she THINKS about it that way. Which says a lot about her relationship with this poor kid anyway.

Has somebody crossposted the link to Ask Annie over there?

I have now

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