agonyaunt | (no subject)

(no subject)

Our kids (4 and 6) have gotten really close to our new neighbor’s kids, who are 5-year-old twins. The family is Jewish, and we are big Santa people at my house. Obviously they are not!

None of them have said anything about Santa not being real (I think their parents are careful about that), but would it be incredibly rude to ask their parents to tell their kids to play along a bit? I just don’t want our kids to say “What did Santa bring you?” and to hear “Nothing”; I think it would be confusing and upsetting for them. But I don’t want to be rude or insensitive.

—Jingle Bells

Dear Jingle Bells,

No. No. No. Absolutely not. Do. Not. Do. This. It would be extremely rude, also anti-Semitic, also if you don’t listen to me and do this anyway and their parents reasonably freak out at you, please tell them that you contacted a parenting advice columnist named Nicole Cliffe and she said not to do it but you did it anyway and she told you this is what would happen.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/12/becoming-own-mother-parenting-daughter-care-and-feeding.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Every single year, I see more and more pleas for help from people who are bumping into problems with the fact that they taught their child that Santa is literally real, and every single year none of them seem to realize that they could've avoided whatever issue they're currently having if they always treated Santa like make believe, a fun game that everybody, including the kids knows isn't really true.

(deleted comment)

I don't understand why they all pretend it isn't lying when it is. I mean....

Because culturally, it hasn't been constructed that way. Tooth fairy, Easter bunny, even the stork: quasi-mystical beings who brings delightful things on a particular occasions have been coded in the dominant culture as one of those things that kids believe in until a certain age and then don't. Of course they're lies, but they're culturally approved lies, and since "lie" is a negative term, we just don't use it. I'm not saying that's a good thing, or a bad thing. It just is. Honestly, as childhood lies go, I suspect it's far less damaging than, "you can do or be anything you want."

I guess, but I mean it's still telling your children something you know isn't true and expecting them to believe it. Whereas on some level I think parents and teachers do think you can do anything you want more or less.

Edited 2019-12-27 07:58 (UTC)

Oh I think it can be fun to believe in magic, for both kids and parents; I enjoyed it, as did my parents

But by the same token, it shouldn't get to the point of being stupid...like, the LW could have her kids ask, "what presents did you get" etc

As to being anything you want to be, I think Grant Snider put it best, you'd probably seen this one of his

It can be fun, but you won't be laughing too hard if your kid turns out to be one of the ones who is actually traumatized by the reveal.

You have a point as well. I just never thought the reveal would be so very traumatic...

Nobody who hasn't seen it or experienced it thinks it will be, and to be fair, for most people it doesn't seem to be. But for some people it's really bad and it doesn't take that much looking to find people who report still being upset into adulthood

There are meanspirited people out there who will mock those who were very upset and hurt by the revelation, but honestly, I didn't think it was worth the risk with the nieces and my sister was very happily on board with that plan. (And we lucked out. The older niece turned out to be the sort of kid who, dollars to donuts, would've been extremely upset.)

Ah OK, thanks for explaining. I understand what you mean, and glad to hear the plan worked out

I don't really understand what the end game is, since at some point, the kids will find out. But then there's also:

My five year old: too young to know that santa isn't real
Someone else's five year old: old enough to be informed they have to be sensitive enough to perpetuate some one else's story they told their kids

Which I'm very much Nope about.

Well, kids grow out of a lot of things. My kid believed in Santa far longer than I did, and when she stopped, it wasn't particularly more remarkable than when she grew out of watching Sesame Street. Well, okay, the second one was more traumatic for me, but still. Everything you do with a kid doesn't necessarily have a "long game." Some things are just fun while you do them.

also, how hard is it to say "Santa doesn't visit the neighbors because Jewish kids have different holidays"? Santa is already irrational, and your very small children are already believing all kinds of irrational things with their belief in Santa. You don't want to say "Santa doesn't visit Jews," because that can lead to your kids taking away something about Jewish kids being bad children who don't get presents, but you can absolutely say, "Santa visits people who celebrate Christmas, and the neighbor kids are Jewish and so they don't celebrate Christmas."

I mean, I don't really have the right to have a commentary on how weird it is to tell your kids that Santa Claus is real, but I was a Jewish kid in a Catholic town, so I know there are plenty of perfectly reasonable things you can say to your Christmas-celebrating kids. Just like several years back, when my friend's kids said "can we celebrate Hanukkah like auntie Jadelennox does?" and my friend simply answered "no, because we are not Jewish, and so we don't celebrate Hanukkah, we celebrate different holidays."

But that might upset her kids, and it's their feelings that are important. This could ALL have been avoided with a little more care in the earlier years.

Yes yes yes this. It's really really unreasonable to ask five-year-olds to actively support your religious myths. Not spoiling the Santa thing, fine, most Jewish people I know were coached by their parents not to hurt their Christian friends' feelings with premature skepticism. But joining in the pretence, which they won't understand at all, is too much.

And yes, you tell your Christian children that Santa only visits people who celebrate Christmas, because Santa shows respect for other people's traditions. Little children can say "Santa didn't bring me a present because I don't celebrate Christmas". Adults can explain based on respect, though I think the LW may not be in a strong position to model respect for other cultures. If they've already gone a long way down the line of Santa bringing gifts as a reward for good behaviour that's a problem, but I think you can still explain it via respect, in that not everybody wants the same kind of rewards and there's no point giving a reward that the recipient doesn't like.

Sometimes people talk about the concept of celebrating someone else's birthday. Like, you wouldn't go to the birthday party of someone you didn't know, much less celebrate a stranger's birthday in your own home. Santa brings gifts to celebrate Jesus' birthday, which only makes sense for people who have that kind of relationship with Jesus. That might be more use as an explanation to Jewish children; for Christian kids you want to be careful not to imply that they have a mission to convert their Jewish friends.

Exactly!

Not saying "Santa isn't real" *is* playing along a bit. If LW ignored this good advice and asked her neighbor to tell her kids to pretend they believe in Santa, the next-door neighbor would be entirely justified in telling her kids to tell LW's kids that Santa isn't real.

Yup.

I dunno. Spoiling Santa would not be nearly as bad as what LW is proposing—I'm not suggesting an equivalence—but I still don't think one bad act (by LW) deserves another (aimed at LW's children).

LW is asking her neighbor to either lie to her children, or to instruct her young children to lie to LW's child. That's really bad. Telling the truth? Not nearly as bad.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, "not ... nearly as bad" are the exact words I used.

Ooooh, I got you backwards. Sorry about that.

I don't think it is being suggested that LW's neighbors promptly "spoil Santa", but that it is being pointed out that by not "spoiling Santa" they are already compromising and what LW is asking for goes far beyond compromise to cultural imperialism and would thus justify cancelling the compromise.

Edited 2019-12-24 17:47 (UTC)

I agree completely about the extreme inappropriateness of LW's proposal, but I don't agree that showing a basic measure of respect for somebody else's belief qualifies as a compromise, and I can't get on board with punishing LW's children for LW's bad behavior.

People believe all manner of things I find ridiculous, but I don't go around denigrating those beliefs as a matter of basic respect—not for the beliefs themselves, but for the people who hold them. Santa is a childish belief, but the principle is the same. Children also deserve respect.

I don't think refusing to participate in an observance in one's own space (we're talking about LW sending their children to their neighbor's home and asking for the neighbors to pretend to believe in Santa rather than just not mentioning him) is "going around denigrating others' beliefs", though. And in my experience this kind of respect is asked for from minority groups far more often than from people in majority groups, which is part of why I agree with Nicole's response.

"Children deserve respect" -- doesn't that extend to Jewish children?

This situation is far less complicated than LW is making it out to be. We live in a neighborhood with people from Christian, Hindu, and Muslim backgrounds. My family is not religious but follows Christian traditions. We tell our kids that different families celebrate different holidays, and all the kids play together and get along great. A few simple accommodations, like our Muslim neighbors' dietary restrictions, are easy to incorporate into our lives. My kids happily look forward to Santa and aren't at all upset by the families that don't celebrate Christmas. LW is inventing a problem; children are far more accepting than LW seems to realize.

And what do our neighbors say about Santa? Nothing. They just say they celebrate different holidays and talk about those. It is easily possible to talk about one set of holidays without trying to actively torpedo another. It's wonderful that all our kids get to learn about different traditions. So yes, of course respect extends to Jewish (or other non-Christian) children.

LW's proposal is hugely inappropriate. But I don't agree that the neighbors should then alter their approach to LW's kids.

Your neighborhood sounds lovely.

You're oddly fixated on

redbird's (justifiable!) anger about how rude the LW's suggestion is. My read is that

redbird is making an equivalence about what would be equally rude, not a suggestion for how to be rude to your neighbors.

I wish I was surprised that you are a non-religious person who celebrates Christmas. Respectfully, you don't understand as much about what it's like to be a religious minority in the West during December as you might think you do, and you might want to do more listening than talking in these discussions.

I’m not fixated. People reply to me on that topic, and I respond. I’m happy to drop it now.

I don’t think I understand much about being a religious minority, and I’m willing to listen. I don’t say anything to undermine my neighbors’ beliefs or traditions—to them, their kids, my kids, or anyone. I tell my kids they’re lucky to see and even participate in so many different cultural traditions. I admit I’m baffled by the notion that it’s too much to ask the same in return, so if you can shed some light on that subject, I’m all... eyes, I guess.

I'd wonder if your Muslim and Hindu neighbors think things are being handled so great in your neighborhood, because it is not an even playing field. Christianity still predominates in the US and if you're of a Christian background, even non-practicing, agnostic, or atheist, you really aren't in a position to know. Minoanmiss's point that things get asked of minority religious groups, as well as ethnic or racial all the time that aren't asked of the dominant group. And yes, there is imperialism and Christian-centrism in the LW's request, that makes me want to say fuck off with imposing your Santa crap problems on Jews.

The question is, what do you do when the other person asks something like "do you believe in God?" and then either gets upset, or wants to know why not, when I tell them the truth.

I don't run around telling my Christian friends "come on, you don't really believe that"--it would be rude, and I'm fairly sure that people who tell me they believe in Jesus do, in fact, really believe that--but I also wouldn't sit quietly if someone insisted that I agree, not just that they had had a mystical experience, but that their experience proves the existence of the deity in question, and therefore I shouldn't be an atheist.

LW isn't respecting the neighbor's beliefs, which include the nonexistence of Santa--"there is only one God, and he hasn't hired someone who lives at the North Pole to give presents to children once a year" is at least as valid and coherent a belief as that Santa does live at the North Pole etc. She is in fact asking whether it would be "incredibly rude" to ask her neighbors to pretend to believe things they don't.

There's a big difference between someone telling you "your belief is stupid and wrong" and holding beliefs that are devastatingly threatened by someone else saying "I don't believe that." The solution is to find a better story to teach your kids (

conuly had some good suggestions upthread), not to perpetuate Christian hegemony.

Edited 2019-12-24 18:38 (UTC)

Honestly. WTF, LW, your neighbors have already compromised and here you are wanting to shove your holiday down their throats. WTFF.

Conversation as it almost certainly took place when I was the neighbour kid:

Christian kid: what did Santa bring you.
Me: Nothing. Jews don’t have Santa. I get Chanukah presents instead.
CK: oh ... lets build a snow fort?

LW is a presumptious jerk and I feel sorry for her kids and her neighbours

Exactly, or even

"Wow, you get presents for 8 days?!"

;)

I'd explained to kids when they were young that Santa Claus brings presents to those who celebrate Christmas, and Grandpa Frost brings presents to those who celebrate New Year, and that there are different characters who bring gifts for different holidays, in different countries. They were quite satisfied ;)

(Actually, my then-5-yr old surprised me one time--

There was a computer game he wanted, and he said "I hope Santa Claus will bring me this game". His dad told him, no, it's Granfather Frost who brings gifts for New Year's. He then said, "I don't care if Santa Claus brings it, or Grandfather Frost, or even if you buy it for me, Dad, as long as I get it" :P :)))

It is a dilemma one can face in other situations too, a colleague from India, who is Catholic, once mentioned how her youngest, when she was about 5, and they lived in India, wanted to join the Diwali celebrations, outside--it's a huge festival, with fireworks, etc. and she heard her older son, who was about 10, I think, explaining to his little sister, "this is not our holiday" etc.

;))

so...honestly...why is it a big deal?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only