Why are drivers assholes?

[conuly]

Dear Annie: My grandmother and I are very close. She is 83 years old and super independent. She loves to keep busy and is always running around town.

I'm writing to you because I need your advice on how to get through to her. I'm worried about her driving. She has always driven like a "cowboy." She speeds and is very impatient on the road.

If she sees someone jaywalking, she'll speed up to "scare them," as she puts it. It's very dangerous and very scary.

I've told her many times that she is driving dangerously, but her reply is that she's never gotten into an accident, so why would she now. Her agility and reflexes are declining as she's aging, and I am scared she will hurt someone or herself if she keeps on driving so carelessly. How can I get her to take this plea to drive safer seriously?

Please help me, thank you. — A Concerned Granddaughter

Dear Concerned Granddaughter: You have every right to be concerned. Keep talking to her about the dangers of her actions. You might have to call the local police and let them know that she is on the loose. Maybe a ticket would help her see that she is not above the law.

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Comments

[conuly]

So, the advice isn't bad - and I really do think LW should contact her local DMV and ask how to get her grandmother evaluated to see if she is capable of driving safely if she thinks that she isn't - but LW is making a severe tactical error by referring to Grandma's driving as "unsafe".

In my experience, you get a lot more traction with "unkind". There's something about being chided like a small child that really gets to people. "Grandma, I don't want to drive with you because I don't like how you treat other people. I don't think it's very kind to scare people like that" does not lend itself to an argument of "Nuh-uh, it's totally okay!" the way "I don't think it's safe" does.

And on a related note, drivers are all worse at driving than they think they are, and hardly any of them really know what the laws are regarding pedestrians. People will say the wildest things are "jaywalking" and then when you look it up you find out that no, the accused "jaywalker" was following the law perfectly with regards to how to cross the street.

[lilysea]

In my experience, you get a lot more traction with "unkind". There's something about being chided like a small child that really gets to people. "Grandma, I don't want to drive with you because I don't like how you treat other people. I don't think it's very kind to scare people like that" does not lend itself to an argument of "Nuh-uh, it's totally okay!" the way "I don't think it's safe" does

Huh, that's interesting

Not that I would EVER behave like LW's grandmother

but someone telling me something was unsafe

would make me less defensive

than someone telling me something was unkind.

Because there are so many things that women are "supposed" to do to be kind, unkind would get my back up in a way that unsafe wouldn't (because safety is gender-neutral and more objective than kindness)

(and also because there are times when something I do might be considered unkind - like telling a stranger I don't want to listen to their medical woes or their child's medical woes on the train when they've decided that "random stranger who uses a wheelchair" = must want to be their free therapist - but I hope that I very rarely behave in a way that is *unsafe*)

[haggis]

But unsafe has clearly not worked on this person so LW needs another strategy. Unkind might not be the right one. You want to target a trait that the LW's aunt thinks she is and show how the dangerous driving doesn't fit that personality trait.

[lilysea]

Also:

WTF, grandma?

Speed up "to scare someone" ?????

One of the scariest experiences I had while driving was driving on a dark Winter night around 7pm or 8pm - either no moon or moon covered by clouds, no streetlights nearby, and I was driving past an park that is almost always completely deserted at that time of night in icy winter weather

when a pedestrian dressed all in dark black clothing leapt out in front of my car

(fortunately I was able to brake in time, but it was a near thing - if it hadn't been that I almost always drove less than the speed limit, I probably wouldn't have been able to stop)

there were no other cars on the road behind me or after me, so I am not sure why the pedestrian didn't cross earlier, or wait for me to pass

to this day, I wonder if the pedestrian was trying to get hit

that was a terrifying experience - the idea that LW's grandma would put themselves a similar situation

***on purpose***

is !!!!!

[full_metal_ox]

Never mind “unkind” or “unsafe”; the angle of approach I’d suggest is to point out the consequences of a vehicular manslaughter rap if the (real or perceived) jaywalker can’t skedaddle out of the way quickly enough.

Using Florida as an example: it’s a second-degree felony with a maximum of 15 years’ imprisonment, 15 years probation, and a $10,000 fine. A hit-and-run incident raises that to a first-degree felony with a 30-year maximum sentence. Even given the court’s probable lenience in sentencing a defendant her age, it would also mean at least temporary license revocation.

And then there’s this, according to KF&B Law Firm:

Caregivers, family members, doctors, and others with knowledge that a licensed driver may no longer have the ability to safely drive may report it to the FLHSMV. The department will conduct an investigation and has the authority to suspend or revoke a person’s driving privileges. The identity of the person making the initial notification to the FLHSMV will not be disclosed. The law prevents legal action from being taken against them.

[conuly]

because safety is gender-neutral and more objective than kindness

Very much not in my experience. I doubt any cisgender man has ever been asked if he really feels safe walking home down a busy street at 6pm just because "it's dark out", and yet that's happened to me multiple times.

[full_metal_ox]

Damn!—that’s bad enough when deer do it, but they don’t know any better! Good thing you didn’t suffer a heart attack!

Or maybe they were the sort of merry prankster trying to scare you for the lulz, and assuming that they’re the protagonist of the universe and consequences only ever happen to other people.

[full_metal_ox]

Cis men don’t get The Rape Talk. Just like white people don’t get The Law Enforcement Talk (and may not even know such a thing exists.)

[lilysea]

that's a good point

when I was talking about safety being gender neutral

I meant safety re driving - safety in terms of the risk of the drivers actions hurting the driver or someone else

eg bald tyres
drink driving
speeding
driving while looking at mobile phone

are equally dangerous regardless of gender

[conuly]

Yeah, but the LE Talk is valid and the Rape Talk is... mostly bullshit. If you're gonna get raped, it's almost never going to be some dude in a bush on a (fairly cold, actually) nighttime stroll during rush hour. It's going to be an existing romantic partner, or some dude at a bar, or anyway somebody you're already acquainted with.

[conuly]

Though those behaviors may be gendered both in how often people do them and also in consequences if they're caught doing them.

[lokifan]

God, so terrifying! Poor you!

[lokifan]

Oh, unkind seems like a good approach, yeah.

[conuly]

Unkind might not be the right one.

It might not be, but especially as it would be her own granddaughter saying it I think it's a good place to start. People really don't want to think their loved ones think they're assholes.

[redbird]

I wonder whether "Grandma, why do you want to scare people? What will you tell the police when you hit someone?" would work.

It sounds like LW's grandmother is assuming that, because so far everyone she "tried to scare" escaped, her targets will keep moving fast enough to satisfy her. (I am optimistically assuming that the answer isn't that she expects to get away with it, because she didn't get caught last time.)

[pauraque]

Wouldn't be surprised. Once I saw two kids, I would guess 10-12, standing on a residential sidewalk waiting for cars to come by and jumping out to make them brake, then running back to safety and laughing hysterically. I was driving, and after watching them do this to several cars ahead of me (it was a long street with good visibility), I pulled over and told them they were being idiots and were going to get themselves killed, but they pretended not to be able to hear me. ("What? What?" *more hysterical laughter*)

There's kids being kids, and then there's having a fucking death wish.

[jadelennox]

See, I'd just go with "Grandma, what the hell is wrong with you? I am appalled." and then stonewall her attempt to justify it or find it amusing. But my family is a hell of a lot less subtle than many.

[oursin]

I know this isn't funny, and it's a serious problem, and maybe she should get checked out, but are they living in Pasadena?

[carbonel]

White woman here. I've seen The Law Enforcement Talk as plot points on television at least twice (Grey's Anatomy was the first), and it's a powerful reminder of privilege.

[movingfinger]

Granddaughter needs to stop getting in a car with her. "No, I'm not going with you in the car unless you give me the keys and I drive." And start talking to family members about it being time for Grandma to give up driving.

I too would rat her out the local DMV (as per full_metal_ox above) and cops about this hostile aggressiveness. Grandma's reflexes are certainly not what they were.

[topaz_eyes]

If she sees someone jaywalking, she'll speed up to "scare them," as she puts it. It's very dangerous and very scary.

In Canada this is called "dangerous operation of a motor vehicle" and it is very illegal. Forget trying to talk to grandma anymore; LW needs to record such incidents on her phone, and then report grandma for unsafe driving.

[mrissa]

I think this is actually the same problem as the grandmother: the kids and the grandmother have each thoroughly convinced themselves that the bad outcomes cannot possibly happen to them. That's a really hard mindset to get through at whatever age.

I mean, if someone said to me, "you can't go to the library today, a shark might fall out of the sky and land on your head," I would laugh and ignore them too. Because my risk assessment of that situation says that that is NOT a big risk. The problem comes in when people are very, very wrong about what is and is not a big risk.

Quite often the easier thing to convince people of is that while their risk of the thing is very low, their risk of me being a total jerk about the thing is quite high, where by "total jerk" we mean "person who will not get in the car with a driver at the wheel who threatens people with the motor vehicle" or similar things. This is less satisfying because I won't be around for everything. But it's what I've got.

[conuly]

At least those kids might have changed their behavior after you left the scene - their exaggerated refusal to listen only means they were obnoxious, not that they didn’t listen.

[melannen]

Yeah, and even if something is technically jaywalking, a lot of time pedestrians do it because it's safer for both them and then cars. (There's an intersection near my house with a full pedestrian crossing with lights - but the right-turn lanes don't have to stop, and the crosswalks across the right-turn lanes have zero visibility for oncoming cars. If you cross legally, you die.)

But I feel like someone who deliberately scares pedestrians while driving is probably not someone for whom the concept of "kindness to strangers" computes, so I'm not sure that strategy would work.

[full_metal_ox]

Worst-case scenario: it could be the person who gave you The Rape Talk.

[minoanmiss]

Hey! I resisted making that joke!

[green_grrl]

WTF, grandma?

Speed up "to scare someone" ?????

This reminds me of what I noticed in different states across the country. I grew up in California, where motorists stopped for pedestrians because it was the law. I visited New York, and more than once was in a cab where the driver aimed towards pedestrians to shoo them out of … their rightful streets, I guess. Then I went to Hawaii, and when a driver was still a half a block away, they’d still start braking already and give a friendly wave to cross. I’m guessing grandma was from a place with a more manic car culture.

[liv]

Also also, jaywalking is a ridiculous law. No other country makes it a crime for a pedestrian to cross the road at an unauthorized point! I have read that the crime was invented as a way to give the police a yet further excuse to harrass Black people, which sounds plausible though I don't know if it's actually true. In any case it's dangerous and illegal to drive at people even if they are in a place where legally they shouldn't be.

[oursin]

I wasn't sure if anyone else was old enough to remember Jan and Dean!

[full_metal_ox]

Another of whose big hits is somewhat relevant to the subject—-not to mention weirdly prophetic: “Dead Man’s Curve.”

[full_metal_ox]

It’s also a natural consequence of the charming American phenomenon of stroads—-which are also great fun for the mobility-impaired and non-drivers.

[minoanmiss]

Hee, my parents had a lot of vinyl and loved the Smothers Brothers.

[melannen]

It's not actually solely American - the word and cultural concept of "jaywalking" is, but a lot of countries have various kinds of restrictions on pedestrians on vehicular roads. (Even in the UK IIRC pedestrians are banned on motorways.) And even in the US - while the US, as usual, has a confusing patchwork of a lot of different municipalities' laws - generally, the consistent rule is you can't walk on motorways, you can't be reckless in complete contravention of reasonable safety (generally only used when determining fault in an accident), and that if there *is* a marked intersection with lights and crosswalks, you need to obey the lights and stay on the crosswalks. And the first two apply in most of the UK too, and in most of the US, there aren't crosswalks (or sidewalks, or municipal laws) and pedestrians just do whatever.

A lot of *drivers* (like LW's grandma) think the jaywalking laws are a lot stricter than they are, and a lot of Americans don't understand the laws very well, but honestly the main reason Americans avoid walking on most of our roads is that the design of them is incredibly unsafe for pedestrians whether they care about the jaywalking laws or not.

(I mean, there was/is definitely racism involved, it's America, there's always racism involved. But most places that have stricter jaywalking laws also have anti-loitering laws, so it's not like the police *need* the jaywalking laws to harass pedestrians.)

[full_metal_ox]

Speaking of whom! This notorious sketch (I read a description in Harlan Ellison’s The Glass Teat) is finally available online.

(For optimum effect, it helps to be old enough to remember Bobby Goldsboro’s song “Honey.”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5t1on6X_wU

[minoanmiss]

bee hee hee, thank you !

[full_metal_ox]

My parents had a lot of vinyl and liked, among other things, Bobby Goldsboro.

(And Mom liked “It Must Be Him” by Vikki Carr. My brother and I did not: we’d play the song and, on each occurrence of the line “and then I die”, enact overwrought paroxmyic death scenes.)